I agree - we did steal (modern) aka conquered (old days) (those of European descents that is - although Natives have the same genetic markups hence, they are of European descents as well, just not the same time frame) lots of land. However, we are in modern times, and the errors our ancestors did from 1500 to late 1800  cannot evaluated using today's standards. So whatever happened in the 1800 - is like done and should be over with. New York was Dutch, Louisiana was French, Alaska was Russian - so what, pray tell, how is it relevant to today's issues ?

 We knew what you meant!

I should have used the word "raise" not rise

What a wonderful thing to say. There's a LOT of weak links out there. I wish I could muster a little more optimism.

I believe the saying "We are only as strong as our weakest link." By rising up the poorest, we rise up the whole world.

I believe the saying "We are only as strong as our weakest link." By rising up the poorest, we rise up the whole world.

Yes.  Because once they get a decent education, they will be tax payers  and will be contributing to this system.  They will be raising their children to be achievers and they will be helping their communities.  Some will become business owners themselves and hire people who need jobs and produce marketable products that keep the cycle going.  It's not all dark and bleak - look for positives and build on them.

*bump* to clear out the "breaking news" thread
 
  
 It isn't a matter of "deserving," even. The rules for who can qualify aren't that simple but it boils down to: they've been here a long time, came here as children, and if we don't open up a pathway to success for them, they will be a drain on our system forever. If we don't give them some path to legitimacy, they'll never come forward. Sure, find a way to stop the influx, go ahead with that (try not to just target brown-skinned people though, that tends to annoy a lot of citizens). But in the meantime, the ones who are here through no fault of their own? You can have them continue to be a drain on services, non-taxpaying, illegals forever, or you can ...not. There are a lot (most?) who won't qualify, but the ones who do, why not open a door to legitimacy for them?

*bump* to clear out the "breaking news" thread

There are many young people here who were brought in by their parents; some of them never knew that they were illegal until they applied for a job. These are the people who are being offered college tuition. They are just as American as you, they were raised up here, and deserve to go to college, serve in the armed forces, etc. 

Oh so now you are going to start asking him for his papers? I though you was agin' that! Ok, obviously I am outta control. My excuse is I go on vacation in exactly one minute!

I think, my friend, that you are long on conjecture and short on documentation.  Which means, you'd make a great politician!

j/k

Traditionally, on payday, they usually head(ed) straight to the closest Western Union Office and send the money by wire to their families back home.  This is based upon my experience growing up in SoCal where this was the norm and where most of the illegals congregated, with of course the exception of Texas as well.  This pattern of behaviour is pretty well documented.  As a rule, the illegals were / are very thrifty.  They spend as little as possible during their stay in the states.  They do not aquire things because they are always moving around, due to the fact that they are living in the shadows and must be able to relocate very easily at a moments notice.  They may buy cars, but they don't buy TV's, washers and dryers, computers and big ticket items that settled people buy because they must remain portable.  In that sense, they do not contribute to our economy.  They are a drain on social services as well.  That is well documented and not necessary to discuss for this point.

I'll disagree again, using the construction trades as an example.  While they may not require higher education, they usually require an apprenticeship leading towards accomplishment designations on master and journeyman for example.  There is a difference between wood worker and wood butcher for example.  Plumbers and electricians require higher education levels than highschool.  These trade jobs are were well paying.

An auto mechanic now needs a 4 year degree.  Welders go to school.  Same with HVAC.  College is not for everyone, nor is the end all fix all.  Some do not even want to go to college.  Many are happy working with their hands.  We have an oversupply of college grads now who cannot find work.  We used to have a vibrant vo - ed program in this country teaching a wide range of skills for those who were not college material or simply had no interest in college.

We are supposed to forego all of these skills that used to be taught at the vo - ed level to illegals ?  Is there something wrong with an American making 50k being a carpenter or painter ?  These crafts are now overrun with illegals doing the same for 20k and with inferior skills, doing crappy work because they are not dependent on a reputation to keep getting future work.  In painting for example, there are two levels, blow and go and painting.

Yep, I have always pushed my son into getting some type of certification or apprentiship as opposed to a 4 year degree and not just because there is no way I can afford it!

Sorry for the wrong take.  You are correct on the wages of the jobs I was refering to.  The point there is that they have taken away most of these jobs paying 50k from Americans because they work for less.

On your second para, we totally agree.

The low level jobs I guess we can agree upon are hospitality, landscaping, restuarant and domestic housekeeping, and others to be sure.  On the other hand, these are jobs that were often filled by Americans who fell on hard times to get them through.  They are not a career.  They are something to get one through the night.  That and they are entry level jobs to establish a work record.  For the illegals however, they are career jobs in reality, because that is about as far as they can progress because they are illegal.

You misunderstand me, I am not talking about these jobs you are talking about above. I do not consider them the low level jobs I meant. I am no policy wonk expert on this subject, but do not see these skill level jobs requiring certifications and appentiships being taken by illegals. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think there are a lot of illegals making 50k plus in these level of jobs you are talking about.

BTW I actually think the types of jobs you are talking about are more important than white collar college degree required jobs. These are true skills that will always be needed in our economy for the foreseeable future unlike the traditional 4 year college degree jobs which I think are becoming less and less important.

I'll disagree again, using the construction trades as an example.  While they may not require higher education, they usually require an apprenticeship leading towards accomplishment designations on master and journeyman for example.  There is a difference between wood worker and wood butcher for example.  Plumbers and electricians require higher education levels than highschool.  These trade jobs are were well paying.

An auto mechanic now needs a 4 year degree.  Welders go to school.  Same with HVAC.  College is not for everyone, nor is the end all fix all.  Some do not even want to go to college.  Many are happy working with their hands.  We have an oversupply of college grads now who cannot find work.  We used to have a vibrant vo - ed program in this country teaching a wide range of skills for those who were not college material or simply had no interest in college.

We are supposed to forego all of these skills that used to be taught at the vo - ed level to illegals ?  Is there something wrong with an American making 50k being a carpenter or painter ?  These crafts are now overrun with illegals doing the same for 20k and with inferior skills, doing crappy work because they are not dependent on a reputation to keep getting future work.  In painting for example, there are two levels, blow and go and painting.