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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Immigration Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 33, 34, 35 ... 38, 39, 40  Next
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kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 24, 2012 - 2:43pm


Zukiwi wrote:   in Breaking News

I agree - we did steal (modern) aka conquered (old days) (those of European descents that is - although Natives have the same genetic markups hence, they are of European descents as well, just not the same time frame) lots of land. However, we are in modern times, and the errors our ancestors did from 1500 to late 1800  cannot evaluated using today's standards. So whatever happened in the 1800 - is like done and should be over with. New York was Dutch, Louisiana was French, Alaska was Russian - so what, pray tell, how is it relevant to today's issues ?



There was no Mexico before Cortez invaded and conquered the area first called New Spain and later Mexico when it won its independence from Spain.  There were no Mexicans either.  Mexicans are the result of the rape of the indigenous natives by the Conquistadors.  Mexicans are not indigenous to the area.  Spain also possesed most of the American Southwest as well.  Father Serra established the Missions in California.  He was Spanish, not Mexican.

So let's be correct in not saying that the west was stolen from the Mexicans for starters.  Mexico is about the same age as the US if we consider the Roanoke colony as the start of the US some 400 years ago.  And there is evidence of Vikings in the present day US dating back to at least 800 AD.  So who was here first, where ?

Zukiwi is correct, we should be dealing with the present and stop trying to argue about the past as an excuse to support present partisan agendas.


ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 24, 2012 - 11:00am

Interesting that this would go past on my FB today:
 
 
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 24, 2012 - 7:27am

 helenofjoy wrote:

{#Group-hug}
 We knew what you meant!

 
See, I am the grammar police on my own self!
helenofjoy

helenofjoy Avatar

Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 24, 2012 - 7:23am

 hippiechick wrote:

I should have used the word "raise" not rise

 
{#Group-hug}
 We knew what you meant!
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 24, 2012 - 7:13am

 Umberdog wrote:

What a wonderful thing to say. There's a LOT of weak links out there. I wish I could muster a little more optimism.

 
I should have used the word "raise" not rise
Umberdog

Umberdog Avatar

Location: In my body.
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 24, 2012 - 7:06am

 hippiechick wrote:

I believe the saying "We are only as strong as our weakest link." By rising up the poorest, we rise up the whole world.

 
What a wonderful thing to say. There's a LOT of weak links out there. I wish I could muster a little more optimism.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 24, 2012 - 7:02am

 hippiechick wrote:

I believe the saying "We are only as strong as our weakest link." By rising up the poorest, we rise up the whole world.

 
This is absolutely true. It doesn't matter how good your defense is, if your offensive line can't block anyone you're screwed.
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 24, 2012 - 6:57am

 helenofjoy wrote:
Yes.  Because once they get a decent education, they will be tax payers  and will be contributing to this system.  They will be raising their children to be achievers and they will be helping their communities.  Some will become business owners themselves and hire people who need jobs and produce marketable products that keep the cycle going.  It's not all dark and bleak - look for positives and build on them.

 
I believe the saying "We are only as strong as our weakest link." By rising up the poorest, we rise up the whole world.
helenofjoy

helenofjoy Avatar

Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 24, 2012 - 6:54am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
*bump* to clear out the "breaking news" thread
 
  
 It isn't a matter of "deserving," even. The rules for who can qualify aren't that simple but it boils down to: they've been here a long time, came here as children, and if we don't open up a pathway to success for them, they will be a drain on our system forever. If we don't give them some path to legitimacy, they'll never come forward. Sure, find a way to stop the influx, go ahead with that (try not to just target brown-skinned people though, that tends to annoy a lot of citizens). But in the meantime, the ones who are here through no fault of their own? You can have them continue to be a drain on services, non-taxpaying, illegals forever, or you can ...not. There are a lot (most?) who won't qualify, but the ones who do, why not open a door to legitimacy for them?

  Yes.  Because once they get a decent education, they will be tax payers  and will be contributing to this system.  They will be raising their children to be achievers and they will be helping their communities.  Some will become business owners themselves and hire people who need jobs and produce marketable products that keep the cycle going.  It's not all dark and bleak - look for positives and build on them.


sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 24, 2012 - 6:42am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
*bump* to clear out the "breaking news" thread

 
Hey! They took my joooooobbbbb!  Now, now Skeeter settle down now.{#Lol}
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 24, 2012 - 6:39am

*bump* to clear out the "breaking news" thread
 
 hippiechick wrote:

There are many young people here who were brought in by their parents; some of them never knew that they were illegal until they applied for a job. These are the people who are being offered college tuition. They are just as American as you, they were raised up here, and deserve to go to college, serve in the armed forces, etc. 

   
 It isn't a matter of "deserving," even. The rules for who can qualify aren't that simple but it boils down to: they've been here a long time, came here as children, and if we don't open up a pathway to success for them, they will be a drain on our system forever. If we don't give them some path to legitimacy, they'll never come forward. Sure, find a way to stop the influx, go ahead with that (try not to just target brown-skinned people though, that tends to annoy a lot of citizens). But in the meantime, the ones who are here through no fault of their own? You can have them continue to be a drain on services, non-taxpaying, illegals forever, or you can ...not. There are a lot (most?) who won't qualify, but the ones who do, why not open a door to legitimacy for them?
katzendogs

katzendogs Avatar

Location: Pasadena ,Texas
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 7:07pm

The immigrants do the 'stoop' labor that most of us can't do. I try to set up work so my guys won't need to bend and stoop. They don't seem to care either way. I can not see white people bending and stooping in vegetable fields bending all day  without caving. And have ya seen the guys that tie rebar on concrete construction jobs? Sheesh. Buy them some water...or a beer after work. 
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 12:40pm

 sirdroseph wrote:


Oh so now you are going to start asking him for his papers? I though you was agin' that! Ok, obviously I am outta control. My excuse is I go on vacation in exactly one minute!{#Motor}

 

Before you can leave, we'll have to see your vacation papers.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 12:29pm

 aflanigan wrote:


I think, my friend, that you are long on conjecture and short on documentation.  Which means, you'd make a great politician!

j/k

 

Oh so now you are going to start asking him for his papers? I though you was agin' that! Ok, obviously I am outta control. My excuse is I go on vacation in exactly one minute!{#Motor}
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 12:26pm

 kurtster wrote:

Traditionally, on payday, they usually head(ed) straight to the closest Western Union Office and send the money by wire to their families back home.  This is based upon my experience growing up in SoCal where this was the norm and where most of the illegals congregated, with of course the exception of Texas as well.  This pattern of behaviour is pretty well documented.  As a rule, the illegals were / are very thrifty.  They spend as little as possible during their stay in the states.  They do not aquire things because they are always moving around, due to the fact that they are living in the shadows and must be able to relocate very easily at a moments notice.  They may buy cars, but they don't buy TV's, washers and dryers, computers and big ticket items that settled people buy because they must remain portable.  In that sense, they do not contribute to our economy.  They are a drain on social services as well.  That is well documented and not necessary to discuss for this point.

 

I think, my friend, that you are long on conjecture and short on documentation.  Which means, you'd make a great politician!

j/k


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 6:40am

 kurtster wrote:

I'll disagree again, using the construction trades as an example.  While they may not require higher education, they usually require an apprenticeship leading towards accomplishment designations on master and journeyman for example.  There is a difference between wood worker and wood butcher for example.  Plumbers and electricians require higher education levels than highschool.  These trade jobs are were well paying.

An auto mechanic now needs a 4 year degree.  Welders go to school.  Same with HVAC.  College is not for everyone, nor is the end all fix all.  Some do not even want to go to college.  Many are happy working with their hands.  We have an oversupply of college grads now who cannot find work.  We used to have a vibrant vo - ed program in this country teaching a wide range of skills for those who were not college material or simply had no interest in college.

We are supposed to forego all of these skills that used to be taught at the vo - ed level to illegals ?  Is there something wrong with an American making 50k being a carpenter or painter ?  These crafts are now overrun with illegals doing the same for 20k and with inferior skills, doing crappy work because they are not dependent on a reputation to keep getting future work.  In painting for example, there are two levels, blow and go and painting.



This is exactly my AutoCAD example that you said didn't apply. If jobs pay well and there is a way to attain them at a lower entry cost, people will use that and put downward pressure on wages for that position. Sure the ITT Tech guys didn't do the same quality work that I did, or do it as fast, but when the hourly rate (or worse - piece rate) is 25%, you can spend some time and wait for rework.  There is no guarantee of no competition in the job market.  Yes the illegal immigration thing is an issue, but it's just one component. People demanding competitive prices and business owners seeking profit also factor in and at the end of the day if a carpenter charges too much, he won't get the work.

"They took our jobs" is an emotional call. But there are pressures on jobs all over. Certifications, licenses, apprenticeship programs are all just ways for the worker to push back and maintain some scarcity. They are a way of protecting the wage base by making the barrier to entry for the profession higher.  Immigration laws are just one more factor like that in the work force, it just so happens that it has some more obvious societal impacts as well, and has a nice emotional hook for everyone to hang on.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 5:54am

 sirdroseph wrote:


Yep, I have always pushed my son into getting some type of certification or apprentiship as opposed to a 4 year degree and not just because there is no way I can afford it!{#Lol}

 
My dad who is an architect made the point that a plumber in San Francisco made $25 an hour in the 50's and 60's.  That rang a bell back then when I was just old enough in 5th grade to make $20 in a month with a paper route for the old Berkeley Gazzette.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 5:44am

 kurtster wrote:

Sorry for the wrong take.  You are correct on the wages of the jobs I was refering to.  The point there is that they have taken away most of these jobs paying 50k from Americans because they work for less.

On your second para, we totally agree.

The low level jobs I guess we can agree upon are hospitality, landscaping, restuarant and domestic housekeeping, and others to be sure.  On the other hand, these are jobs that were often filled by Americans who fell on hard times to get them through.  They are not a career.  They are something to get one through the night.  That and they are entry level jobs to establish a work record.  For the illegals however, they are career jobs in reality, because that is about as far as they can progress because they are illegal.



 

Yep, I have always pushed my son into getting some type of certification or apprentiship as opposed to a 4 year degree and not just because there is no way I can afford it!{#Lol}
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 5:31am

 sirdroseph wrote:


You misunderstand me, I am not talking about these jobs you are talking about above. I do not consider them the low level jobs I meant. I am no policy wonk expert on this subject, but do not see these skill level jobs requiring certifications and appentiships being taken by illegals. Correct me if I am wrong, but I do not think there are a lot of illegals making 50k plus in these level of jobs you are talking about.

BTW I actually think the types of jobs you are talking about are more important than white collar college degree required jobs. These are true skills that will always be needed in our economy for the foreseeable future unlike the traditional 4 year college degree jobs which I think are becoming less and less important.

 
Sorry for the wrong take.  You are correct on the wages of the jobs I was refering to.  The point there is that they have taken away most of these jobs paying 50k from Americans because they work for less.

On your second para, we totally agree.

The low level jobs I guess we can agree upon are hospitality, landscaping, restuarant and domestic housekeeping, and others to be sure.  On the other hand, these are jobs that were often filled by Americans who fell on hard times to get them through.  They are not a career.  They are something to get one through the night.  That and they are entry level jobs to establish a work record.  For the illegals however, they are career jobs in reality, because that is about as far as they can progress because they are illegal.


mzpro5

mzpro5 Avatar

Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 28, 2012 - 5:21am

 kurtster wrote:

I'll disagree again, using the construction trades as an example.  While they may not require higher education, they usually require an apprenticeship leading towards accomplishment designations on master and journeyman for example.  There is a difference between wood worker and wood butcher for example.  Plumbers and electricians require higher education levels than highschool.  These trade jobs are were well paying.

An auto mechanic now needs a 4 year degree.  Welders go to school.  Same with HVAC.  College is not for everyone, nor is the end all fix all.  Some do not even want to go to college.  Many are happy working with their hands.  We have an oversupply of college grads now who cannot find work.  We used to have a vibrant vo - ed program in this country teaching a wide range of skills for those who were not college material or simply had no interest in college.

We are supposed to forego all of these skills that used to be taught at the vo - ed level to illegals ?  Is there something wrong with an American making 50k being a carpenter or painter ?  These crafts are now overrun with illegals doing the same for 20k and with inferior skills, doing crappy work because they are not dependent on a reputation to keep getting future work.  In painting for example, there are two levels, blow and go and painting.

 



I think your reliance on the "trades" is skewing the argument. I 150% agree about vo-Ed. I know I have used this example before but - I have two brothers. I went to college, brother one went to a two year vo-Ed school after HS was certified as a stationary engineer and has worked in HVAC his whole life. Brother two went into the electricians apprentice program and has worked as an industrial electrician his whole life. Both make a sizable amount more than I with the degree does.

But neither is in any fear of losing their jobs to illegals, nor are several friends that are union trained carpenters. Illegals may do the "less skilled" of the trades such as hanging drywall and basic painting but they are not going to be pushing out certified skilled tradesman. My brothers and friends sometimes are concerned for their jobs but not because of illegals taking their jobs but due to the economic down turn.

A group in this area that are "infringing" on the carpentry trade are the Amish. A fair number of builders in my area have been using groups of Amish to do the basic framing of homes. They are skilled and they work relatively cheap. In this area my carpenter friends are more concerned about them than the illegals.
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