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Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 21, 2022 - 9:44am


NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 10:45am

At the risk of repetition


Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 10:30am

 kurtster wrote:
And just what jobs are waiting for them ?  We already have an over supply of unskilled workers in case you haven't noticed.  And they still are not allowed to be employed legally.

The skilled workers that we need generally enter legally.  At least as far as I can tell.

You not paying attention doesn't mean there isn't a problem.

I've lost count of how many businesses I used to frequent (mostly restaurants) that have closed in my area due to labor shortage. Getting help in the ag sector is driving farmers out of business and forcing a lot of consolidation. Tried to hire a truck driver lately? Burger-flipping wages are over $20/hour here.

And it isn't just here; entry-level jobs are going begging all over the country. How can you not notice this?

The US government makes it extraordinarily difficult for workers of any skill level to enter the country legally. Skilled workers who cross illegally end up in menial jobs because they don't have the documents to get work in their fields.

And no, we don't have anything approaching open borders—as has been explained to you countless times. If we ever do you'll hear me celebrating.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 10:20am

 black321 wrote:

You are making the large, and historically wrong assumption these migrants will enter the welfare state and not the job market, further building the economy, and thereby supporting the welfare state 
 
And just what jobs are waiting for them ?  We already have an over supply of unskilled workers in case you haven't noticed.  And they still are not allowed to be employed legally.

The skilled workers that we need generally enter legally.  At least as far as I can tell.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 10:10am

 kurtster wrote:

Not fighting words.  Just an observation of the facts available.

Regarding Sanders, I don't have the quote but I remember his remarks about the necessity of a closed system for a welfare state to function properly made several years ago.

The internal funding of the welfare state is a finite resource.  It requires fixing the numbers of beneficiaries to the limits of the funds available.  When more and more people are added into the system without increases of funding, it fails.  How do you increase the funding ?  Print more money ?  Add to the debt with deficit spending ?  Sooner or later, the bills will come due.  The old Thatcher quote, socialism works until you run out of other peoples' money ...

You are making the large, and historically wrong assumption these migrants will enter the welfare state and not the job market, further building the economy, and thereby supporting the welfare state 

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 9:18am

 kurtster wrote:


I was trying to respond to a number of your claims that you spread across more than one post. One of your claims (Afaict) is that Biden and the Democrats want open borders to bring in more immigrants in order to boost the number of Democratic voters.
If you want to stick to this, so be it:
"How you can have a successful welfare state with an unlimited amount of participants entering into the system with no increase in resources ?"

If you had unlimited number of participants entering with no increase in resources (I take it you mean resources available to the welfare system), that situation would be untenable. 
But that notion reads like a bad hypothetical in an introductory macroeconomic policy class dealing with basic models. We have nothing like that situation occurring in the US. 
You're the king of buffoonery here, btw, so your cries that I've muddled your thoughts are pretty amusing. Still stuck in the pumpkin patch?
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 9:09am

Lest it gets lost in this debate, the provision known as Title 42 (Title  42 is the title of the U.S. Code devoted to health provisions) is an emergency health provision authorized because of the pandemic. It is not meant to be — and cannot be — a permanent border control measure,. It has to be lifted at some point. One can debate whether that time is now, but one cannot legitimately argue that it should be permanent. 
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 8:48am

 kcar wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
A successful welfare state which functions on the redistribution of wealth can only exist in a closed system, which you very well know. The "wealth" being redistributed is a finite resource. So tell me how you can have a successful welfare state with unrestricted access to the benefits.  

1. We do not have open borders. Biden and the Democratic party do not want open borders. 

2. Illegal immigrants in the US do not have "unrestricted access to the benefits." 

3. Non-citizens in the US, including illegal immigrants, cannot vote in federal, state and most local elections.

  https://www.usa.gov/who-can-vo...
U.S. immigrants are rising in number, but just half are eligible to vote3a. "This current snapshot shows that unauthorized Hispanic immigrants also lean more Democratic than Republican—though to a lesser degree than Hispanic immigrants who are currently eligible to vote. And it’s uncertain whether these unauthorized immigrants, many of whom are currently unaffiliated, would adopt similar political affiliations and voting patterns if given the chance to naturalize." https://www.pewresearch.org/fa... 4. Recent immigrants are less politically engaged and involved than US-born citizens.  So letting more illegal immigrants into this country is not a clear electoral win for Democrats. Also, the perception that the Democratic party is lax on illegal immigration is one of the biggest reasons for increased GOP voter turnout and campaign donations. 
 
Good grief, where to begin ?

I was making observations of what can negatively impact the welfare state as an entity.

Nothing in your responses addresses the question which was simply put ...

So tell me how you can have a successful welfare state with unrestricted access to the benefits ?????

2 does not answer the question.  It just offers your take on the access to benefits by a specific group.

Maybe if I rephrase the question for you ...

How you can have a successful welfare state with an unlimited amount of participants entering into the system with no increase in resources ?

I'll address your point number 3 separately later as you have totally missed the boat on that one and ran to the wrong goal post.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 8:36am

 black321 wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

Consensus smensuss.  Pass all the laws you want.  Biden will not enforce them, which is his Constitutional job. Biden wants opens borders.  The democratic party as a whole wants open borders.  And that is what we have right now. Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.  Even a good socialist like Bernie Sanders knows that.

Sounds like fighting words. 
good luck 
 
Not fighting words.  Just an observation of the facts available.

Regarding Sanders, I don't have the quote but I remember his remarks about the necessity of a closed system for a welfare state to function properly made several years ago.

The internal funding of the welfare state is a finite resource.  It requires fixing the numbers of beneficiaries to the limits of the funds available.  When more and more people are added into the system without increases of funding, it fails.  How do you increase the funding ?  Print more money ?  Add to the debt with deficit spending ?  Sooner or later, the bills will come due.  The old Thatcher quote, socialism works until you run out of other peoples' money ...
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 18, 2022 - 7:45am

 kurtster wrote:

Consensus smensuss.  Pass all the laws you want.  Biden will not enforce them, which is his Constitutional job.

Biden wants opens borders.  The democratic party as a whole wants open borders.  And that is what we have right now.

Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.  Even a good socialist like Bernie Sanders knows that.

Sounds like fighting words. 
good luck 

kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 11:40pm

 kurtster wrote:


A successful welfare state which functions on the redistribution of wealth can only exist in a closed system, which you very well know.

The "wealth" being redistributed is a finite resource.

So tell me how you can have a successful welfare state with unrestricted access to the benefits.  

1. We do not have open borders. Biden and the Democratic party do not want open borders. 

2. Illegal immigrants in the US do not have "unrestricted access to the benefits." 

3. Non-citizens in the US, including illegal immigrants, cannot vote in federal, state and most local elections. 

https://www.usa.gov/who-can-vo...


U.S. immigrants are rising in number, but just half are eligible to vote

3a. "This current snapshot shows that unauthorized Hispanic immigrants also lean more Democratic than Republican—though to a lesser degree than Hispanic immigrants who are currently eligible to vote. And it’s uncertain whether these unauthorized immigrants, many of whom are currently unaffiliated, would adopt similar political affiliations and voting patterns if given the chance to naturalize."

https://www.pewresearch.org/fa...

4. Recent immigrants are less politically engaged and involved than US-born citizens. 

So letting more illegal immigrants into this country is not a clear electoral win for Democrats. Also, the perception that the Democratic party is lax on illegal immigration is one of the biggest reasons for increased GOP voter turnout and campaign donations. 

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 9:21pm

 R_P wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.

"Muh entitlements!" IGMFU
 

A successful welfare state which functions on the redistribution of wealth can only exist in a closed system, which you very well know.

The "wealth" being redistributed is a finite resource.

So tell me how you can have a successful welfare state with unrestricted access to the benefits.  
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 3:25pm

 kurtster wrote:
Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.

"Muh entitlements!"

IGMFU
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 2:57pm

 black321 wrote:
Neither party is doing anything to find a real political solution to this crisis.  
Find a consensus to a process to effectively document whatever # of migrants we wish to accept, and implement it. Then we can better protect the terrors and drawbacks g smuggling types, and protect the vast majority of innocent migrants who just want a better life. 
 
Consensus smensuss.  Pass all the laws you want.  Biden will not enforce them, which is his Constitutional job.

Biden wants opens borders.  The democratic party as a whole wants open borders.  And that is what we have right now.

Problem is that a welfare state cannot function / exist for very long with open borders.  Even a good socialist like Bernie Sanders knows that.
black321

black321 Avatar

Location: An earth without maps
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 7:23am

 kurtster wrote:

Yep.  So far we have had 5 million illegals that we know of enter during Biden's first two years.  With the law changing next week the rate is expected to climb to 5 million per year bringing the expected total during his administration to 15 million.  That is more than the population of the 5th most populous state, Pennsylvania which has about 4% of the population.

Pa currently has 18 congressional seats.  So this influx of new people will affect the redistribution of about 20 congressional seats.  I am sure this is part of Biden's plan.  No doubt shipping the new arrivals to certain states in order to change the composition of the House, no doubt in favor of the democrats.

Everyone in Biden's administration constantly says we do not have open borders and the border is secure and that everything is going as he planned.

Ya sure, you betcha' ...


Neither party is doing anything to find a real political solution to this crisis.  
Find a consensus to a process to effectively document whatever # of migrants we wish to accept, and implement it. Then we can better protect the terrors and drawbacks g smuggling types, and protect the vast majority of innocent migrants who just want a better life. 

Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 7:12am

 kurtster wrote:

Ya sure, you betcha' ...



That big, beautiful wall paid for by Mexico just isn’t working, is it?
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 5:28am

Yep.  So far we have had 5 million illegals that we know of enter during Biden's first two years.  With the law changing next week the rate is expected to climb to 5 million per year bringing the expected total during his administration to 15 million.  That is more than the population of the 5th most populous state, Pennsylvania which has about 4% of the population.

Pa currently has 18 congressional seats.  So this influx of new people will affect the redistribution of about 20 congressional seats.  I am sure this is part of Biden's plan.  No doubt shipping the new arrivals to certain states in order to change the composition of the House, no doubt in favor of the democrats.

Everyone in Biden's administration constantly says we do not have open borders and the border is secure and that everything is going as he planned.

Ya sure, you betcha' ...
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 17, 2022 - 4:21am

Steely_D

Steely_D Avatar

Location: Biscayne Bay
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 31, 2022 - 9:07am

 sirdroseph wrote:
in the end the elite will always be protected 

Thank goodness

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Oct 31, 2022 - 3:56am

You will own nothing and you will be happy.  Martha's Vineyard didn't like it, but in the end the elite will always be protected:
 
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