"Do you have any answers for the questions I posed ?"
Not right now, but thanks for speaking your mind and spelling out your position. I agree with your desire to enforce existing laws but I think the federal government has to be flexible on those laws to adjust to changing realities. I don't think the Trump government is handling well this surge of people from Central American countries in crisis.
I don't believe in open borders at this time and I'd be surprised if the US government ever created legal and social welfare systems sufficient to handle open borders. I also don't believe that this is an "either or" issue at all. You can have reasonable immigration controls.
This is not a big issue for me, although the spike in immigrants from CA countries is somewhat alarming.
Oh, we have. Many times over many years. I understand where he is coming from and he is consistent. He wants open borders. We disagree on the idea that there are illegal immigrants. There is very little to talk about between us on the subject anymore. We have covered it pretty well.
But here we are with all hell breaking loose on the border right now and no resolution in sight. My response was more to anyone who wants open borders than him directly. Don't say you want open borders without saying how it works and who pays for what. I have yet to hear any ways to make open borders work. Just open them up. A free for all.
I just want the laws we already have enforced until they are changed to something else by Congress. Until then we have anarchy at the border. If we don't already enforce the laws we have, why would anyone even begin to think that we would enforce new ones ? I mean, come on ... who is that stupid ? . I'm really a small L libertarian, but the issue of the border and immigration is where I am incongruent with most conventional libertarians. I find open borders inconsistent with the idea of private property for openers.
Do you have any answers for the questions I posed ?
"Do you have any answers for the questions I posed ?"
Not right now, but thanks for speaking your mind and spelling out your position. I agree with your desire to enforce existing laws but I think the federal government has to be flexible on those laws to adjust to changing realities. I don't think the Trump government is handling well this surge of people from Central American countries in crisis.
I don't believe in open borders at this time and I'd be surprised if the US government ever created legal and social welfare systems sufficient to handle open borders. I also don't believe that this is an "either or" issue at all. You can have reasonable immigration controls.
This is not a big issue for me, although the spike in immigrants from CA countries is somewhat alarming.
Odd how you and Lazy8 have never discussed your diametrically opposed opinions on immigration controls...AFAICT...
Oh, we have. Many times over many years. I understand where he is coming from and he is consistent. He wants open borders. We disagree on the idea that there are illegal immigrants. There is very little to talk about between us on the subject anymore. We have covered it pretty well.
But here we are with all hell breaking loose on the border right now and no resolution in sight. My response was more to anyone who wants open borders than him directly. Don't say you want open borders without saying how it works and who pays for what. I have yet to hear any ways to make open borders work. Just open them up. A free for all.
I just want the laws we already have enforced until they are changed to something else by Congress. Until then we have anarchy at the border. If we don't already enforce the laws we have, why would anyone even begin to think that we would enforce new ones ? I mean, come on ... who is that stupid ? . I'm really a small L libertarian, but the issue of the border and immigration is where I am incongruent with most conventional libertarians. I find open borders inconsistent with the idea of private property for openers.
Do you have any answers for the questions I posed ?
A utopia requires a closed system to protect it. A welfare state requires a closed system in order to work properly due to finite resources. So we let in anyone to come and take from us what ever they want without investing and then move on to greener pastures when the proverbial well runs dry and leave the locals who built up everything behind and suffering ? How do you say no to anything when you have open borders ? How do you deal with people who want to cause harm ? How do you deal with the infirmed, the disabled, the uneducated who show up and say take care of me ?
These are not rhetorical questions. How about some answers ? If you want open borders, you'd better have the answers.
Proclaiming opens borders is the same thing as inviting the Vampire into your house. I happened to be working on the following song when I took a break and came over here to take a peak at the RAFT.
.
Odd how you and Lazy8 have never discussed your diametrically opposed opinions on immigration controls...AFAICT...
New book by Zach Weinersmith. It's in graphic novel form but it's nonfiction, presenting the moral, economic, and practical case for open immigration.
If you enjoy having thoughts provoked but don't want to pop for a $13 book just read the comic, but if you want to specifically provoke thought (not just bombast) on this topic I'm going to recommend this one based on his previous work. Should be an easy read and fun.
Ok. We now have open borders. Anyone can come in for any reason. How do we manage it ? How do we manage uncontrolled growth without unlimited resources ?
Wasn't urban planning the great lesson learned from the uncontrolled growth of the 60's and 70's; the urban sprawl that came without planning and infrastructure to make it work properly.
There is that nasty little 4 letter word that no one wants to use ... PLAN. Planning takes time and coordination of people, property and resources. There is an old saying that I still use when appropriate ... piss poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part. Everheard that one before ?
A utopia requires a closed system to protect it. A welfare state requires a closed system in order to work properly due to finite resources. So we let in anyone to come and take from us what ever they want without investing and then move on to greener pastures when the proverbial well runs dry and leave the locals who built up everything behind and suffering ? How do you say no to anything when you have open borders ? How do you deal with people who want to cause harm ? How do you deal with the infirmed, the disabled, the uneducated who show up and say take care of me ?
These are not rhetorical questions. How about some answers ? If you want open borders, you'd better have the answers.
Proclaiming opens borders is the same thing as inviting the Vampire into your house. I happened to be working on the following song when I took a break and came over here to take a peak at the RAFT.
New book by Zach Weinersmith. It's in graphic novel form but it's nonfiction, presenting the moral, economic, and practical case for open immigration.
If you enjoy having thoughts provoked but don't want to pop for a $13 book just read the comic, but if you want to specifically provoke thought (not just bombast) on this topic I'm going to recommend this one based on his previous work. Should be an easy read and fun.
A bipartisan deal to bring millions of immigrants out of the shadows, and pay for a secure border.
By Peter King and Tom Suozzi
Mr. King is a Republican representative from New York. Mr. Suozzi is a Democratic representative from New York.
March 24, 2019
Americans are frustrated by the inaction of their federal government on comprehensive immigration reform and border security. So are we.
We both represent districts on Long Island, and we have both worked on immigration-related issues for over 25 years — one of us, Representative Suozzi, from the perspective of immigrant’s rights as a mayor, as a county executive and now as a member of Congress; the other, Representative King, from the perspective of border security as a former county comptroller, and now as a congressman and former chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee.
We come at this from different points of view and different parties, but with a shared commitment to finding a solution to our country’s border-security issues. Together, we have found common ground to address the problems faced by undocumented immigration and the need for robust border security.
the orange man like those before him inherited insensitive and foolish policy
he has done his fair share (or maybe more) of perpetuating and grandstanding on a failing and idiotic system
in spite of our government(s), people still know/understand that we offer more choice/freedom, especially economic opportunity than their country of origin
the best thing we could do is reel in the foreign aggression, encourage economic exchange and let people move and operate freely
also, who is running the show in their home countries?
authoritarian despots leaders that don't know what they're doing?
allowing people to produce and prosper isn't that difficult to understand
A bipartisan deal to bring millions of immigrants out of the shadows, and pay for a secure border.
By Peter King and Tom Suozzi
Mr. King is a Republican representative from New York. Mr. Suozzi is a Democratic representative from New York.
March 24, 2019
Americans are frustrated by the inaction of their federal government on comprehensive immigration reform and border security. So are we.
We both represent districts on Long Island, and we have both worked on immigration-related issues for over 25 years â one of us, Representative Suozzi, from the perspective of immigrantâs rights as a mayor, as a county executive and now as a member of Congress; the other, Representative King, from the perspective of border security as a former county comptroller, and now as a congressman and former chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee.
We come at this from different points of view and different parties, but with a shared commitment to finding a solution to our countryâs border-security issues. Together, we have found common ground to address the problems faced by undocumented immigration and the need for robust border security.
You've just described how our government operates.
Yes, it is quite unfortunate that our government doesn't reasonably discuss the issues like you are all doing here. With ideas and feedback. Instead we have managed to vilify all immigrants and any debate seems to be yelling matches in front of the cameras.
And god forbid we accept any blame for creating the problem in the first place like SirD implied.
I'm with you here. The idea that we should make the process so difficult and cumbersome that only those who are truly desperate will risk it seems inherently mean spirited and likely to fail. Let's design and implement a system that will work to achieve the goals we are after. Your idea speaks to an immigration policy that treats people humanely. That's a good start (and a radical departure from the status quo), but we need to also agree and act upon the reasons for having an immigration policy. Is it so allow workers to be here? In what industries? At what levels? Should they pay the same taxes and get the same services? Is there any dispensation for artists or other non-traditional workers? Is it just about commerce, or is there room in this country to assist others as well? How do we make that happen?.....
Personally, I dont see how we can accurately put a social value on a grape picker, engineer, or artist, but perhaps we have a shortage in one or the other... A quota is possibly a valid consideration. Taxes fall in with the rest of the pool. As for benefits, it makes sense to initially limit which ones an immigrant is entitled to.
I'm with you here. The idea that we should make the process so difficult and cumbersome that only those who are truly desperate will risk it seems inherently mean spirited and likely to fail. Let's design and implement a system that will work to achieve the goals we are after. Your idea speaks to an immigration policy that treats people humanely. That's a good start (and a radical departure from the status quo), but we need to also agree and act upon the reasons for having an immigration policy. Is it so allow workers to be here? In what industries? At what levels? Should they pay the same taxes and get the same services? Is there any dispensation for artists or other non-traditional workers? Is it just about commerce, or is there room in this country to assist others as well? How do we make that happen?.....
You've just described how our government operates.
This photo shows why a border wall wonât stop the immigration surge Linear border walls are built alongside the "unstable and circuitous" river banks of the Rio Grande. Many times the engineers leave a strip of American land between the river bank and the border wall. It's US territory, but it's on the "wrong" side of the fence. Would-be immigrants into the US need only cross the Rio Grande and set foot on that "no-man's land" strip of US territory to assert their legal right to claim asylum in the US. They don't have breach or cross over the border wall into the rest of the US.
I'd post the picture but WaPo won't let me...
So you're saying there is a surge? I agree and the issue needs to be addressed as to why that is and to alleviate the draw. We need to get tough with those that hire and abuse illegals in the migrant camps in other words go after the employment Johns instead of just the workers. Also reduce the incentive of the illegals themselves by eliminating any government resources that should be reserved for those that jumped through all of the hoops to attain citizenship. These employers will be forced to pay higher wages to attract US citizens to the workforce reducing unemployment for legals and when the illegals get the message that we will not abuse you, but you will have no employment, not be able to vote and will receive no public assistance. Eventually and hopefully only true refugees who fear for their lives will be willing to go through all the effort to illegally cross over and it will for the most part sort itself out. In other words, make the wall irrelevant. Devils in the details as always, but this is the way we should be approaching this.
Edit: And of course the perpetual refrain of reigning in the biggest cartel and terrorist organization in the world, the CIA in particular and the US government as a whole from messing with South and Central American countries that exacerbate the terror that drives these people north as refugees.
How about instead making the immigration process more simple and efficient for the good migrants to come here? Then we know any who are illegal are the actual criminals, miscreants...
I'm with you here. The idea that we should make the process so difficult and cumbersome that only those who are truly desperate will risk it seems inherently mean spirited and likely to fail. Let's design and implement a system that will work to achieve the goals we are after. Your idea speaks to an immigration policy that treats people humanely. That's a good start (and a radical departure from the status quo), but we need to also agree and act upon the reasons for having an immigration policy. Is it so allow workers to be here? In what industries? At what levels? Should they pay the same taxes and get the same services? Is there any dispensation for artists or other non-traditional workers? Is it just about commerce, or is there room in this country to assist others as well? How do we make that happen?.....
How about instead making the immigration process more simple and efficient for the good migrants to come here? Then we know any who are illegal are the actual criminals, miscreants...
a simple screen for disease and violent background makes way too much sense
This photo shows why a border wall wonât stop the immigration surge Linear border walls are built alongside the "unstable and circuitous" river banks of the Rio Grande. Many times the engineers leave a strip of American land between the river bank and the border wall. It's US territory, but it's on the "wrong" side of the fence. Would-be immigrants into the US need only cross the Rio Grande and set foot on that "no-man's land" strip of US territory to assert their legal right to claim asylum in the US. They don't have breach or cross over the border wall into the rest of the US.
I'd post the picture but WaPo won't let me...
So you're saying there is a surge? I agree and the issue needs to be addressed as to why that is and to alleviate the draw. We need to get tough with those that hire and abuse illegals in the migrant camps in other words go after the employment Johns instead of just the workers. Also reduce the incentive of the illegals themselves by eliminating any government resources that should be reserved for those that jumped through all of the hoops to attain citizenship. These employers will be forced to pay higher wages to attract US citizens to the workforce reducing unemployment for legals and when the illegals get the message that we will not abuse you, but you will have no employment, not be able to vote and will receive no public assistance. Eventually and hopefully only true refugees who fear for their lives will be willing to go through all the effort to illegally cross over and it will for the most part sort itself out. In other words, make the wall irrelevant. Devils in the details as always, but this is the way we should be approaching this.
Edit: And of course the perpetual refrain of reigning in the biggest cartel and terrorist organization in the world, the CIA in particular and the US government as a whole from messing with South and Central American countries that exacerbate the terror that drives these people north as refugees.
How about instead making the immigration process more simple and efficient for the good migrants to come here? Then we know any who are illegal are the actual criminals, miscreants...
This photo shows why a border wall won’t stop the immigration surge Linear border walls are built alongside the "unstable and circuitous" river banks of the Rio Grande. Many times the engineers leave a strip of American land between the river bank and the border wall. It's US territory, but it's on the "wrong" side of the fence. Would-be immigrants into the US need only cross the Rio Grande and set foot on that "no-man's land" strip of US territory to assert their legal right to claim asylum in the US. They don't have breach or cross over the border wall into the rest of the US.
I'd post the picture but WaPo won't let me...
So you're saying there is a surge? I agree and the issue needs to be addressed as to why that is and to alleviate the draw. We need to get tough with those that hire and abuse illegals in the migrant camps in other words go after the employment Johns instead of just the workers. Also reduce the incentive of the illegals themselves by eliminating any government resources that should be reserved for those that jumped through all of the hoops to attain citizenship. These employers will be forced to pay higher wages to attract US citizens to the workforce reducing unemployment for legals and when the illegals get the message that we will not abuse you, but you will have no employment, not be able to vote and will receive no public assistance. Eventually and hopefully only true refugees who fear for their lives will be willing to go through all the effort to illegally cross over and it will for the most part sort itself out. In other words, make the wall irrelevant. Devils in the details as always, but this is the way we should be approaching this.
Edit: And of course the perpetual refrain of reigning in the biggest cartel and terrorist organization in the world, the CIA in particular and the US government as a whole from messing with South and Central American countries that exacerbate the terror that drives these people north as refugees.
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