....off we go intoo the wild blue yonder...off we go intoo the sky...

...our oil friends, the Saudi King an princes', are going to be so happy...we're takin care of the situation...they've been so nervous lately.

I will trust the integrity of the moral support of democracy through warplanes when I see the UN/NATO/US forces equally pounding the governmental forces of Bahrain and Yemen. Until then, it is just another warmongering tactic of bullying by the Big Boys.
Disgusting.
*spits*

 cc_rider wrote: 

  I can honestly say I've never really "got" the German mentality despite being exposed to it a fair bit. 

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:
 
Maybe we should have taken a page from them. Starting, oh, 60 years ago?

 cc_rider wrote: 

there's an election due shortly

noenz would be better informed than me

broadly speaking I think that Germany is still very scarred by it's own actions during WWII and generally opts not to get involved when there is any doubt- the population is cautious and sceptical to the nth degree on international invovlement- maybe they are right

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:
 
I heard something about 'internal political concerns' regarding Germany's non-vote. I have no idea what that means though.

 beamends wrote: 

it was their security council stance that looks odd- not the same thing as active participation or at least tacit approval

economics could be it (not that I'm suggesting that we are whiter than white or even grubby grey in that arena)

 MrsHobieJoe wrote: 
Doesn't Germany have a constitutional problem with fighting overseas? Something rings a bell from the Gulf War Mk.1 I seem to recall.

 geordiezimmerman wrote: 

can't disagree with you although it was more the previous government who were cosying up to Gadaffi than this one I think?  I'm burned over Iraq and think that countries need to sort themselves out but maybe the no fly zone is sort of  neutral (I'm ever the optimist).  At the Kosovo type level interference to prevent a human disaster was the correct move (should've happened earlier). 

 My contact in the know said basically the most of Europe is in except for Germany who made some statement about contracts not getting involved in North Africa (maybe historic experience then !!)

 jagdriver wrote: 
Typical bully shit behavior.

 jagdriver wrote:
  Steaming.

 hippiechick wrote: 
Bullshit

The UK (along with others) have sent tornado fighter jets to Libya. Just as they announce it Libya hold a ceasfire (exactly the same tactics Saddam used)

I'm all for defending the rebels who want gadaffi out, I'm all for defending those who are being shot and killed simply for protesting. However, there are many other middle east countries acting the same way, Yeme and Bahrain to name just two but I don't see us threatening them with a no fly zone. Is this because they are personal friends of the royal family? Personal friends of many conservative members of parliament? One moment we are shaking hands with Gadaffi, selling him literally millions of pounds worth of weapons. Now suddenly he's an evil dictator who must be wiped out! Oh the hypocrisy!

Libya Ceasefire Announced After U.N. Approves Intervention

Old Sudanese/Bosnian/Rwandan proverb: "If you seek freedom for your people, sell oil to the French."

 beamends wrote: 
Beware assistance from the West.

To paraphrase Ronnie,  "We're from NATO and we're here to help"

 hobiejoe wrote: 
And the Kurds in the north - they got crushed too.

 Lazy8 wrote: 
Yes, I'm on the fence over this one, as it's really complicated and has the makings of a WWIII by the time all parties weigh in.

I was all too keen on us going after Saddam when Powell presented the WMD story; what a mess that became. This time I am much less hawkish. I feel for the Libyan "rebels" and would like them to overcome Qaddafi, but, yes, there is a lot of scary precedent-setting going on as you outlined above.

On a closer-to-home and purely-selfish angle, it reminds me that the hedge fund folks were predicting $200-a-barrel prices on oil by June two weeks ago. Just this morning it cost me $68 to fill up with a tank of regular unleaded, and I average a tank a week just in my commute. What if that price does, in fact, get doubled?

jagdriver wrote:
France should take the lead. The jets Qaddafi's air force is strafing with are Mirages, after all. And Sarkozy needs to cover his tracks a bit; he offered to help the Tunisian government with its rebellion when it started.

I have to admit that this whole operation makes me profoundly uncomfortable. Not only because it may be too little too late to effect the outcome but because the UN is taking sides in a Libyan civil war.

What happens if Qaddafi wins anyway? He isn't the forgiving sort and he knows how to fight dirty.

How do we turn down intervening in Bahrain after this—a country with F-16s instead of creaky old Mirages, and a powerful neighbor (Saudi Arabia) intent on keeping its regime in power?

If the UN can intervene in Libya, what about Lebanon? Syria? Iran?

What happens if an uprising breaks out in Saudi Arabia, the region's most powerful country, and next to Israel the best-armed?

 cc_rider wrote: 
IIRC, the Marsh Arabs in southern Iraq, with apparent encouragement from the US attempted an uprising in '91, after the first Gulf War, only to be brutally crushed.