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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » I'm a Dem. Which Republican would you recommend I vote for? Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
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hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 11, 2012 - 7:06am

 miamizsun wrote:

Let's try this:

I respect your opinion and your beliefs.

I also respect your right to pursue or follow those beliefs and I would never, ever use (or have someone use on my behalf) force against you.

Am I allowed to disagree with you and/or your beliefs?
 
Of course!

islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 11, 2012 - 6:57am

 rosedraws wrote:

Thanks for being an awesome businessperson.   And yes to all your points.

Unfortunately, the math works out that thoughtful companies like yours are a pretty tiny portion of what supports the culture, arts, health, social, and environmental needs of our country.

My argument is for people to look at what the government does for us.  It is H U G E.  Companies and individuals could not and would not make up the difference.  And we wouldn't just lose a Weird Artist Grant here and there. 

It is an absurd diversion to talk about making government significantly "smaller".  It is also absurd to talk about lowering taxes.  I wish Americans would grow up and look at their budgets and decide how to pay for all the wonderful things that surround them. Let's talk realistically.  Let's debate how to make government more efficient — instead of the circus of religious posturing and wild promises of lower taxes.

(And again — I'm not arguing with you... )
 


I don't think my business is that unique. Certainly not every business does this, but they don't have to, it's their choice. And if they don't, it's not an evil corporation, it's a corporation that is responding to the desires of their shareholders. I'm with you in principle on the .gov duties. The question is how much, how large and where do we draw the lines. Shared infrastructure like roads, power grids, water systems and other utilities make sense. Everyone gets access, everyone gets benefits. Then you get into the questionable ones - phone systems, TV  airwaves and the like. Originally utilities, public access, for public benefit, infrastructure built with public dollars. Eventually though, they became for fee/for profit and much of the benefit was dropped. You can still argue a communication support aspect, but these are largely entertainment / convenience services now, but they were built with public dollars and still utilize public property to operate so something is owed back to the society that supports them.

 To me it gets down to access and benefit. Benefit can be hard to define, but access is easy. If everyone doesn’t have access, then it’s hard for me to support it as a .gov function.  Arts stuff certainly does have a benefit, but art in New Hampshire is very difficult for me to access. So I think that is a function of local governments. And local politicians should be able to justify those expenditures or lose their jobs. It’s much easier for politicians to wrap up art funding with all kinds of other stuff and then pass something in DC saying that people in Nevada need to pay for public space in New Hampshire, but I don’t think that was the intent of gov. I also think that the inherent bureaucracy that comes with a system that moves money across the country is ripe for corruption or simple waste. Without the accountability we all lose.

I think people do undervalue the benefits that they get from our society (.gov as manager). But I also think they expect too much from it. If too big to fail is a problem for banks, then too big for accountability is a problem for our .gov.

I’m not arguing with you either. I think your points are largely correct. But we are dealing with finite resources, and we can’t compel people to value things the way we do. Everybody gets a vote. And if they vote to muck it up, just to see how bad it gets, then we’re along for the ride.  These are interesting times.

 


miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 11, 2012 - 6:56am

 hippiechick wrote:

Well, first of all, I don't believe that we should own land or have boundaries. I don't believe the government has a right to send me into a life endangering situation or force me to take another life.

Force what?

I believe in society.
 
Let's try this:

I respect your opinion and your beliefs.

I also respect your right to pursue or follow those beliefs and I would never, ever use (or have someone use on my behalf) force against you.

Am I allowed to disagree with you and/or your beliefs?

mzpro5

mzpro5 Avatar

Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 11, 2012 - 6:49am

 hippiechick wrote:

Do I work for free? Almost.

The bottom line is important, but a lot of things are more important.

Private is private. I didn't say that business is bad. But a government's job is to fill in the gaps that business misses.

Libertarianism is a great theory which doesn't work in practice.
 



I fail to see anywhere in the Constitution where it is the "government's job to fill in the gaps that business misses".

Please direct me to the Article/Amendment that lays out that principle.
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 11, 2012 - 6:40am

 miamizsun wrote:

Forget the label for a moment....

Do you believe that anyone else has the right to initiate force on you a free and peaceful person?

And do you believe that anyone has a higher claim on your life, liberty and justly acquired property?

Regards
 
Well, first of all, I don't believe that we should own land or have boundaries. I don't believe the government has a right to send me into a life endangering situation or force me to take another life.

Force what?

I believe in society.

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 11, 2012 - 6:38am

 hippiechick wrote:

Do I work for free? Almost.

The bottom line is important, but a lot of things are more important.

Private is private. I didn't say that business is bad. But a government's job is to fill in the gaps that business misses.

Libertarianism is a great theory which doesn't work in practice.
 
Forget the label for a moment....

Do you believe that anyone else has the right to initiate force on you a free and peaceful person?

And do you believe that anyone has a higher claim on your life, liberty and justly acquired property?

Regards

hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 11, 2012 - 6:30am

 miamizsun wrote:

Do you work for free?

When you look at your banking statement each month how important is that bottom line?

You are free to co-mingle your financial obligations and resources with your neighbor or a group of people.

Confusing or conflating political action via cronyism/corporatism/state capitalism with true non-coercive privatization is common.

Regards
 
Do I work for free? Almost.

The bottom line is important, but a lot of things are more important.

Private is private. I didn't say that business is bad. But a government's job is to fill in the gaps that business misses.

Libertarianism is a great theory which doesn't work in practice.

miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 11, 2012 - 6:24am

 hippiechick wrote:
I know what private means. It means that the bottom line is most important.
 
Do you work for free?

When you look at your banking statement each month how important is that bottom line?

You are free to co-mingle your financial obligations and resources with your neighbor or a group of people.

Confusing or conflating political action via cronyism/corporatism/state capitalism with true non-coercive privatization is common.

Regards

mzpro5

mzpro5 Avatar

Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 11, 2012 - 4:55am

 rosedraws wrote:

I think the NH system is great.  It's sensible.  I do not choose to affiliate with either party, and yet I still have a vote.  I have an opportunity to choose who I'd like to see running for president.  Shouldn't everyone?
 



Yes everyone should which is why we need to have a single national Presidential primary.

All the pundits are saying if Romney wins SC he clinches the nomination. Gee what happened to those of us in the other 47 states?
bokey

bokey Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 9:58pm

 rosedraws wrote:

I think the NH system is great.   It's sensible.   I do not choose to affiliate with either party, and yet I still have a vote.   I have an opportunity to choose who I'd like to see running for president.   Shouldn't everyone?
 
I agree. There is a local Dem pol I want to vote for in the primary, but that means I can't vote for a Republican presidential candidate.

 Since I've reluctantly joined the "anyone but Obama" camp, I essentially don't have the opportunity to vote for the people I want. I have to follow illogical rules that preclude me actually having a complete voice. It's like I only have 1/2 a vote.

ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 9:45pm

 Alpine wrote:


So just stay Republican. 
 
I think about it and a lot of voters do, because the Dem primary ballot is so sparse. But for the most part I don't have any reason to care who they nominate because I'm not going to vote for that person in the General, OR I agree with who they're most likely to nominate (in that I agree they're the best of the available choices) so it's rare that there's a compelling reason to switch.
 
but if we can get more Dems registered, then more dems will run or at least the GOP won't nominate their craziest loons (which is what they seem to do very often). So registering as a Dem has some payoff even when there's no one to vote for... 
Alpine

Alpine Avatar

Location: N39d39mW121d30m
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 9:38pm

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

I'm sure the good people of New Hampshire can decide for themselves how they want to handle primaries. I agree with you in principle but here in Wyoming you can change your party affiliation at the polls (have to choose, though, can't vote Dem in one race, GOP in another). And sometimes (twice) I've done that because there's a race (state senate, sheriff) which is going to be decided at the primary since no Dem candidate is declared. Happens a lot here, and sometimes the stakes are too high not to switch that day.

 

So just stay Republican. 
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 9:34pm

 Alpine wrote:

I've followed your posts.  We all know which party you are affiliated with.  You're not fooling anyone.
 
I think she means affiliate and you mean align
Alpine

Alpine Avatar

Location: N39d39mW121d30m
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 9:33pm

 Beaker wrote: 

I Love Love Love it!
Alpine

Alpine Avatar

Location: N39d39mW121d30m
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 9:32pm

 rosedraws wrote:

I think the NH system is great.  It's sensible.  I do not choose to affiliate with either party, and yet I still have a vote.  I have an opportunity to choose who I'd like to see running for president.  Shouldn't everyone?
 
I've followed your posts.  We all know which party you are affiliated with.  You're not fooling anyone.

ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 9:22pm

 Alpine wrote:

If you are a democrat voting in a republican primary or caucus you should write in your pet's name or just stay home.

 
I'm sure the good people of New Hampshire can decide for themselves how they want to handle primaries. I agree with you in principle but here in Wyoming you can change your party affiliation at the polls (have to choose, though, can't vote Dem in one race, GOP in another). And sometimes (twice) I've done that because there's a race (state senate, sheriff) which is going to be decided at the primary since no Dem candidate is declared. Happens a lot here, and sometimes the stakes are too high not to switch that day.
rosedraws

rosedraws Avatar

Location: close to the edge
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 9:18pm

 Alpine wrote:

If you are a democrat voting in a republican primary or caucus you should write in your pet's name or just stay home.



 
I think the NH system is great.  It's sensible.  I do not choose to affiliate with either party, and yet I still have a vote.  I have an opportunity to choose who I'd like to see running for president.  Shouldn't everyone?

Alpine

Alpine Avatar

Location: N39d39mW121d30m
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 9:05pm

If you are a democrat voting in a republican primary or caucus you should write in your pet's name or just stay home.


Umberdog

Umberdog Avatar

Location: In my body.
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 8:44pm

 hippiechick wrote:

There is nothing wrong with our basic government, it's the $$$ that is wrecking it.
 
I must disagree. If the $$$ can wreck it there's something wrong.
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 10, 2012 - 5:09pm

 rosedraws wrote:

Thanks for being an awesome businessperson.   And yes to all your points.

Unfortunately, the math works out that thoughtful companies like yours are a pretty tiny portion of what supports the culture, arts, health, social, and environmental needs of our country.

My argument is for people to look at what the government does for us.  It is H U G E.  Companies and individuals could not and would not make up the difference.  And we wouldn't just lose a Weird Artist Grant here and there. 

It is an absurd diversion to talk about making government significantly "smaller".  It is also absurd to talk about lowering taxes.  I wish Americans would grow up and look at their budgets and decide how to pay for all the wonderful things that surround them. Let's talk realistically.  Let's debate how to make government more efficient — instead of the circus of religious posturing and wild promises of lower taxes.

(And again — I'm not arguing with you... )
 
There is nothing wrong with our basic government, it's the $$$ that is wrecking it.

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