Greenwald: Who is the worst civil liberties president in US history?
Where do the abuses of the last decade from Bush and Obama rank when compared to prior assaults in the name of war?

The following interesting question arose yesterday from what at first appeared to be some petty Twitter bickering: who was the worst president for civil liberties in US history? That question is a difficult one to answer because it is so reliant upon which of many valid standards of measurement one chooses; it depends at least as much on the specific rights which one understands the phrase "civil liberties" to encompass. That makes the question irresolvable in any definitive way, but its examination is nonetheless valuable for the light it sheds on current political disputes. (...)

Hidden away somewhere within the labyrinth of the Pentagon there must be a top secret euphemism department engaged in the invention of the Orwellian surrogate words that have crept surreptitiously into the American English vocabulary and from there translated into many other languages. In my mind I see a unit of studiously serious executives, coffee mugs in their hands and their neckties awry, devising senseless terms for terrible things and used unthinkingly by people today from New York to California, from Maine to Texas. The goal of my imaginary secret unit is to render ugly terms meaningless or to transform them into their opposite. To quote the perceptive Scottish writer, Candia McWilliam, “plain words are always under threat.” There are words that don’t say what they mean and there are words that say what they don’t mean. (...)

Today, though generally unknown among the public, the relatively new term, “lily pad”, is making its way forward to describe not that beautiful manifestation of nature but the new version of America’s over 1000 military bases and garrisons spreading across some 150 countries of planet Earth. (...)

Commentary: How American Exceptionalism Dooms U.S. Foreign Policy | The National Interest

(...) Amnesia: The past is mostly absent in American foreign-policy thinking, certainly in general public awareness. History begins today, particularly when the countries are weak, authoritarian or evil. They are bad and deserve to be changed, even by force, whatever their history. Indeed, willful blindness reigns once the U.S. government decides to go to war.

Any region will do, but today the Middle East is our biggest example of forgetfulness. It affects almost every country of that region, even as these other nations are intensely preoccupied with history in explaining their poor states.

Our previous interventions—overt and covert—are not a cause for policy uncertainty or caution because we are seeking virtuous ends or our security is in danger. But our definition of security, despite all moral reassurances, is heavily influenced by domestic politics.

Sometimes this amnesia occurs within the same decade. A recent example is the public resurgence of the neoconservatives intellectually responsible for the most destructive decade in U.S. foreign policy in our lifetime. (...)

(...) Rules-Based Foreign Policy: The United States constantly reminds many countries, particularly China, that if they want to be part of the international community they must play by the rules. These are norms that we have largely formulated and instituted. Indeed, they are usually good rules.

Still, only one country—the United States—can be exempt from the rules because of its virtue. We insist on all sorts of exceptions to economic rules in order to satisfy our domestic politics, but it is simply unthinkable, for example, for the Koreans to do the same; until they follow the rules, we won’t play.

China, the greatest rule breaker in the U.S. rule book, has not invaded any country since 1978, and then it was for three weeks. It is hard to remember all the times we have invaded countries—or just bombarded or attacked them incessantly with drones—covertly or overtly, without any international benediction.

The United States is allowed to violate its own rules, as long as it serves our security and other interests as every administration defines them. (...)

The one indispensable nation...

 steeler wrote: 

Yeah, its a dead horse ... but how about the Monroe Doctrine ?

Worked for a couple of hundred years.

steeler wrote:
Kinda.

Some of the criticism isn't about going to war (let's not beat around the bush, ok?) but about going to war without the approval of Congress.

Not that Congress would have objected (at least not enough to stop it) but it would have meant it was a legitimate action with defined goals and Congress on record for and against, and hopefully some limits on scope and scale.

Every single drone strike is an act of war, authorized by one man. This is how kings go to war, not leaders of representative democracies. What happens when somebody finally notices the innocent body count? What do we do, say "Stop that! Stop or we'll...we'll...withdraw our indifferent acquiescence"?

This is life and death, the ultimate exercise in power. The constitution makes it a deliberative process requiring some degree of consensus between the branches of government...for a reason.

 steeler wrote: 
The U.N. is pretty clear about its mission (statement) and supposedly member nations subscribe to that mission, possibly at times at their own expense.

It's also a political body with historical arrangements of power, which explains its relative impotence.

 RichardPrins wrote:
And the U.N. is criticized for not intervening and for intervening, the same damned if you do and damned if you don't quandary. 

However, when a U.N. action is authorized, there at least is the prospect of it being sanctioned by international agreement, if not law.

At this stage, though, international law really is more analogous to a kind of peer pressure.  

  

 steeler wrote:
If one really supports the charter of an organization such as the U.N., it doesn't seem all that difficult. At least as far as policy is concerned. Making it happen is another matter. There is usually lots of messiness/nastiness involved.

Then again, others might be quick to point that a "foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" and may choose differently for whatever reasons or justifications they can bring.

 steeler wrote: 
bizactly.

 RichardPrins wrote:  

It could, and certainly may have in the past. 

I'm wondering, though, what the policy should be, and suggesting that it may not be that easy to define what it should be, as opposed to what it should not be .    

 steeler wrote: 
Does it have to do with whether or not a country has important natural resources (excluding human resources)?

 oldslabsides wrote: 

That certainly is one policy:  No intervention or support of any sort in any country under any circumstances

 steeler wrote: 
I'll be damned and mind my own business, thankyouverymuch.

Devil's advocate:

The U.S. and other nations are criticized for intervening militarily (in various ways)  in Libya to oust Gaddafi.

The U.S. and other nations are criticized for not intervening militarily (at least not enough) in Syria to oust .Assad

Is it a case of damned if you do and damned if you don't?

 kurtster wrote: 
Fine. I just don't care as much about what specific style/form a discussion (or better yet, a post) takes, as long as there's substance/function.

 RichardPrins wrote: 

Sorry your taking it that way. 

I meant it as a compliment.  You took the time to construct your own reply instead of responding with a copy and paste.  That is what I meant by original.  Sure we all use factoids and collected thoughts of others.  I recognized the validity of your points without requesting 'facts' to support them.  The points you expressed yourself with are basically correct as I have come to learn them, its just a different perspective and linkage of the same generally agreed upon things that anyone with more than a casual interest on the subject would generally know.

I enjoy broader and consenting (to sometimes use mild hyperbole and stretches) conversations that are not afraid to look at the edges for a better view of the center and its location to the present, which constantly changes.

I got feedback on the matter, as to the degree of importance of this idea to others.  I'm not here to win anything, and if you really want to help yourself understand me for the future, I'm not paranoid.  I see and hear alot of stuff as do you.  I'm not bringing things up out of paranoia.  I'm bringing things up in the realm of plausibility as opposed to crying the sky is falling.  The failure to discuss plausibilities is censorship of free thinking.  Placing certain discussions as off limits is unhealty IMO.

There are many here who just plain don't like to discuss conjecture at any level and the mere appearance of it is like fingernails on the blackboard to them.

So I'm just encouraging you to do more writing as you took the time to do earlier.  Its refreshing, seriously.

 RichardPrins wrote: 

Truly original thoughts have long been extinct, but so few have been heard they bear repeating.

 aflanigan wrote: 
See Greece. See historical Nazis. See Tea Parties. Etc., etc.

As I learned in history classes, there's always the need for a scapegoat (real or imagined) in such circumstances.

 kurtster wrote: 
Thanks for the condescension. My thoughts aren't original and neither are yours. They are usually based on the stuff we read, or for some the speaking points we hear, from others that tend to be more knowledgeable than we are on specific topics.