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Coaxial

Coaxial Avatar

Location: 543westofParadis,1491east ofParadise
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 6:27pm

 JrzyTmata wrote:



this is not a political statement. it's just what I do. I like funny cats and tomatoes.
 
And saying STFU...{#Hug}

islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 6:25pm

 Welly wrote:

If I come paddling up in my kayak will you take me in? {#Wink}
I'll promise to bring some good BC wine with me.

 
As long as you recycle. Oh, and I have to win the Lotto too or else it will be crowded on the Harrisea.  If not I'll be going down swinging with the rest of you as it all falls apart.

dionysius

dionysius Avatar

Location: The People's Republic of Austin
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 6:07pm

 islander wrote:

I'm pretty sure we are doomed.
 
I'm not that pessimistic. But we are in trouble, and have to act and act quickly, or we will be. We're not in time to save many plant and animal species, I'm afraid. The slow-motion catastrophe we've made and that we're living through will be the next mass extinction event comparable to the P-T and K-T events. But we can perhaps save ourselves, if we get our resource use, carbon emission, and (as you suggest) population under control. Soon.

JrzyTmata

JrzyTmata Avatar



Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 6:06pm

 Welly wrote:

The old grade 5 tomato + fruit flies in the mason jar science experiemt, remember?

(And I'm gonna wait for you after school.)
 


this is not a political statement. it's just what I do. I like funny cats and tomatoes.

cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 6:04pm

 islander wrote:

I'm pretty sure we are doomed. Everyone wants an easy solution, and there just isn't one anymore. The people willing to make changes are too few to make up for the many more who aren't. And that bolded bit is the elephant in the room (well one of them anyway), I've yet to hear anyone say population control. Have 0 kids (I use the term child free) and people think there is something wrong with you, have 8 and you get a TV show. I think we need to buy set asides for the farmland it will take to feed us for our lives, and should have to do the same for any children you bring into the mix. then factor in some dump space, and a small fee for environmental impact...

Maybe we'll get Dio's Fusion reactor in time. But I'm also buying lotto tickets because it looks to me like the same odds. Even money:a clean safe energy source, or I can buy a mountain near the coast and wait for it to become an island to live out my days.
 
Sadly, I'm with you. I believe there is such a thing as global warming. I don't know what actually causes it. We can infer that human activity caused it, but there isn't really any way to know. Vesuvius, Pinatubo, Mt. Saint Helens: THOSE did something us puny mortals can only HOPE to aspire to.

I don't think there is anything we can do to stop it. It is the height of hubris to think we have control over this ball of confusion. We can spend tons of money on whatever band-aids are trendy, and the temp is gonna keep going up.

I'm gonna have another beer.

Welly

Welly Avatar

Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:57pm

 islander wrote:

I'm pretty sure we are doomed. Everyone wants an easy solution, and there just isn't one anymore. The people willing to make changes are too few to make up for the many more who aren't. And that bolded bit is the elephant in the room (well one of them anyway), I've yet to hear anyone say population control. Have 0 kids (I use the term child free) and people think there is something wrong with you, have 8 and you get a TV show. I think we need to buy set asides for the farmland it will take to feed us for our lives, and should have to do the same for any children you bring into the mix. then factor in some dump space, and a small fee for environmental impact...

Maybe we'll get Dio's Fusion reactor in time. But I'm also buying lotto tickets because it looks to me like the same odds. Even money:a clean safe energy source, or I can buy a mountain near the coast and wait for it to become an island to live out my days.
 
If I come paddling up in my kayak will you take me in? {#Wink}
I'll promise to bring some good BC wine with me.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:55pm

 Welly wrote:

You can't deny that we are living in a closed and finite system, just like the mason jar. And we're using the resources up and growing our population too quickly.
But nobody wants to talk about limiting growth.
 
I'm pretty sure we are doomed. Everyone wants an easy solution, and there just isn't one anymore. The people willing to make changes are too few to make up for the many more who aren't. And that bolded bit is the elephant in the room (well one of them anyway), I've yet to hear anyone say population control. Have 0 kids (I use the term child free) and people think there is something wrong with you, have 8 and you get a TV show. I think we need to buy set asides for the farmland it will take to feed us for our lives, and should have to do the same for any children you bring into the mix. then factor in some dump space, and a small fee for environmental impact...

Maybe we'll get Dio's Fusion reactor in time. But I'm also buying lotto tickets because it looks to me like the same odds. Even money:a clean safe energy source, or I can buy a mountain near the coast and wait for it to become an island to live out my days.

Welly

Welly Avatar

Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:44pm

 islander wrote:

is a grade 5 tomato like a grade A tomato?

And all your experiment proves is that under the right conditions a tomato can turn into a fruit fly.
 
You can't deny that we are living in a closed and finite system, just like the mason jar. And we're using the resources up and growing our population too quickly.
But nobody wants to talk about limiting growth.

islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:41pm

 Welly wrote:

Well, see you take a tomato, right? And you put it in this mason jar, see?And then you put in a few fruit flies. And then you put on the lid. And you wait. And you watch. Because those fruit flies love that tomato and they, er, love each other too. So they eat and procreate like...well like fruit flies. And eventually the tomato is mostly gone and the jar is full of mostly fruit flies. THE END.
 
is a grade 5 tomato like a grade A tomato?

And all your experiment proves is that under the right conditions a tomato can turn into a fruit fly.

Welly

Welly Avatar

Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:31pm

 steeler wrote:


I did read Lord of the Flies.

That plays out here on a daily basis.  {#Lol}

 
{#Roflol} yeah. I know. {#High-five}
oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:29pm

 dionysius wrote:


Having patience with wrongheadedness may be a virtue you possess more than I do, OV. The questions have already mostly been answered; the "doubt" is a politicized, artificial, manufactured thing that has nothing to do with science. Anthropogenic climate change is an unfortunate reality; almost every major published scientific paper on the subject points to it. Unable to produce similar scientific literature on their side, the deniers simply seek to create doubt, cast aspersions on what the actual scientists do, delay and deny. I'm actually not worried about it. The proof, as they say, will be in the pudding. In decades to come, as the sea levels rise, icecaps melt, ocean currents and temperatures change, and weather becomes more and more bizarre, people who now claim the title "skeptic" will then be saying, "Well, I knew it all along." The more things change....

 

Indeed, and consistantly. I disagree with the notion that all doubt is political in nature, but you would have to be a little more objective than you seem to admit that. Personally, I believe that there is an anthropogenic index, but to the extent that it can be qualified/quantified with  absolute integrity has in fact become questionable. It seems that whenever honorable questions do arise from honorable folks with solid reputations, they are discounted out of hand. If I were as in the bank as you seem to be, I would be even more dogged in my need to listen to qualified opposing viewpoints, but that's just me. I guess I attempt to stay out of most of this because I would prefer to listen and learn rather than just roll with the general standards of righteous indignation that passes for truth and limited to ever changing scientific opinion and lag time.
Nice stab by the way...Let's hook up on health care or economic recovery some time. 


steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:28pm

 Welly wrote:

Well, see you take a tomato, right? And you put it in this mason jar, see?And then you put in a few fruit flies. And then you put on the lid. And you wait. And you watch. Because those fruit flies love that tomato and they, er, love each other too. So they eat and procreate like...well like fruit flies. And eventually the tomato is mostly gone and the jar is full of mostly fruit flies. THE END.
 

I did read Lord of the Flies.

That plays out here on a daily basis.  {#Lol}
Welly

Welly Avatar

Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:27pm

 steeler wrote:


I think I skipped that day.  {#Doh}

 
Well, see you take a tomato, right? And you put it in this mason jar, see?And then you put in a few fruit flies. And then you put on the lid. And you wait. And you watch. Because those fruit flies love that tomato and they, er, love each other too. So they eat and procreate like...well like fruit flies. And eventually the tomato is mostly gone and the jar is full of mostly fruit flies. THE END.

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:24pm

 Welly wrote:

The old grade 5 tomato + fruit flies in the mason jar science experiemt, remember?

(And I'm gonna wait for you after school.)
 

I think I skipped that day.  {#Doh}
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:24pm

 oldviolin wrote:

Actually, I think that you under estimate the rationale and intelligence of a lot of folks with that particular attitude. The fact that climate change is a reality over time is hardly in dispute. The argument comes over just what role humanity actually plays in it. I think there is room for discussion without the snide remarks, don't you? There are plenty of questions yet to be answered, the science of tact and political strategy notwithstanding.
 

Indeed.  There was an Ice Age.  Wiped out dinosaurs until they became, er, well, dinosaurs.

Nothing to worry about. Move along.   {#Wink}

Edit:  A little more seriously . . . it does seem that there is reason for concern, which is what gets me when those out on the margin argue that it is a hoax.


Welly

Welly Avatar

Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:23pm

 steeler wrote:


Where is your proof of that?  Huh?  Huh?  

{#Wink} 

 
The old grade 5 tomato + fruit flies in the mason jar science experiemt, remember?

(And I'm gonna wait for you after school.)

steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:20pm

 Welly wrote:

Meh. We're in complete overshoot. Unless we reduce consumption/growth the system will crash and not much else will matter.Unfortunately there are some who believe the only way forward is to continue growing.It's a hootenany of a debate, that much is for sure.
 

Where is your proof of that?  Huh?  Huh?  

{#Wink} 
Welly

Welly Avatar

Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:18pm

 dionysius wrote:
 Welly wrote:

Another interesting perspective. FWIW, this one is more in line with my thinking.


You radical!

 
Meh. We're in complete overshoot. Unless we reduce consumption/growth the system will crash and not much else will matter.Unfortunately there are some who believe the only way forward is to continue growing.It's a hootenany of a debate, that much is for sure.

dionysius

dionysius Avatar

Location: The People's Republic of Austin
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:06pm

 oldviolin wrote:

Actually, I think that you under estimate the rationale and intelligence of a lot of folks with that particular attitude. The fact that climate change is a reality over time is hardly in dispute. The argument comes over just what role humanity actually plays in it. I think there is room for discussion without the snide remarks, don't you? There are plenty of questions yet to be answered, the science of tact and political strategy notwithstanding.
 

Having patience with wrongheadedness may be a virtue you possess more than I do, OV. The questions have already mostly been answered; the "doubt" is a politicized, artificial, manufactured thing that has nothing to do with science. Anthropogenic climate change is an unfortunate reality; almost every major published scientific paper on the subject points to it. Unable to produce similar scientific literature on their side, the deniers simply seek to create doubt, cast aspersions on what the actual scientists do, delay and deny. I'm actually not worried about it. The proof, as they say, will be in the pudding. In decades to come, as the sea levels rise, icecaps melt, ocean currents and temperatures change, and weather becomes more and more bizarre, people who now claim the title "skeptic" will then be saying, "Well, I knew it all along." The more things change....


islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 7, 2009 - 5:01pm

 Beaker wrote:

On this topic, are there only two classes of folk in your worldview?  Believers and deniers?  How about those of us sitting on the fence who acknowledge points made by both sides?  What about those of us who want the science to be proven and re-tested, based upon the proven shenanigans?  Sounds reasonable to me.

Oh wait.  I'll just bet you assume anyone who isn't a believer, by virtue, MUST BE a DENIER!  Of course!  Silly me.
 

I'm genuinely curious when I ask this: Have you ever posted anything in support of anthropomorphic climate change? I had thought that the majority of your arguments were "it's a sham foisted on us by the environmentalists".

edit: duh s/anthropomorphic/anthropogenic.   Although anthropomorphic might be an interesting discussion as well.

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