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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Climate Change Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 92, 93, 94 ... 104, 105, 106  Next
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HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 6:29am

 miamizsun wrote:

Do you think that these issues may have an effect on the situation, before, during or after?

We're not talking seat belts here.

We're talking the largest tax scheme in the history of the planet and control of everything on earth that is energy related.

Involved in that control are the likes of the biggest and "slipperiest" criminals in the world.

In light of all of the manipulation and conflicting data, what are the objections to openly and objectively investigating all of the data, even if it took an extra 6-12 months?

Regards

     None,go ahead,but in the mean time,lets do something about the problems at hand, since we are 6-12 years 
     late anyway.


miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 6:17am

 Inamorato wrote:

It is a Pascalian choice for climate change skeptics, although not for people who think global warming is real and in part human-caused such as me, Friedman, and the vast majority of scientists.

I will not attempt to address the specifics of implementation given the complexity of the subject and my limited time, except to say that it will require international agreement and national legislation. Sure, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth by industry which will say it is an unfair burden and anti-commerce as they always do. And as with the regulation of CFCs and the requirements for engines that burn unleaded gasoline and for mandatory seatbelts, industry will find a way to make money with it and society and the world will be better off for it.

As for corruption, theft, and incompetence, those are obviously all bad things but not ones with which I have a particular axe to grind.



 
Do you think that these issues may have an effect on the situation, before, during or after?

We're not talking seat belts here.

We're talking the largest tax scheme in the history of the planet and control of everything on earth that is energy related.

Involved in that control are the likes of the biggest and "slipperiest" criminals in the world.

In light of all of the manipulation and conflicting data, what are the objections to openly and objectively investigating all of the data, even if it took an extra 6-12 months?

Regards


Inamorato

Inamorato Avatar

Location: Twin Cities
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 11, 2009 - 5:25am

 miamizsun wrote:

Sounds like Pascal's wager to me {#Wink}

I have no problem being more efficient, cleaning up the environment, etc.

I do have a problem with corruption and theft in the name of doing so.

If you were in charge, how would you handle the situation?

Wouldn't it make sense to make changes with the least amount of harm? (philosophically speaking)

Cut waste and redirect resources in a intelligent manner in line with the objective?

Of course you/we would.

Now what do we see happening?

And why would we choose to put incompetent people in charge?

Are we crazy? {#Stupid}

 

It is a Pascalian choice for climate change skeptics, although not for people who think global warming is real and in part human-caused such as me, Friedman, and the vast majority of scientists.

I will not attempt to address the specifics of implementation given the complexity of the subject and my limited time, except to say that it will require international agreement and national legislation. Sure, there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth by industry which will say it is an unfair burden and anti-commerce as they always do. And as with the regulation of CFCs and the requirements for engines that burn unleaded gasoline and for mandatory seatbelts, industry will find a way to make money with it and society and the world will be better off for it.

As for corruption, theft, and incompetence, those are obviously all bad things but not ones with which I have a particular axe to grind.


miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 6:14pm

It is officially a (tax) scam.....

Soros's Climate Plan

Financier Proposes Use of IMF Currency to Pay for Emissions Reduction
By ALESSANDRO TORELLO

COPENHAGEN — Financier George Soros proposed that rich nations tap into special currency reserves issued by the International Monetary Fund to finance efforts by poor countries to combat climate change.

Mr. Soros suggested that rich nations finance climate subsidies for developing nations by tapping into some of the $283 billion in special drawing rights that the IMF issued to respond to the global financial crisis earlier this year. More than $150 billion of those rights went to the 15 biggest developed economies, he said. Special drawing rights, or SDRs, are a form of composite currency issued by the IMF to its members.

 

And you've also got those boyscouts over at Goldman Sachs running the carbon credit derivatives trading scheme too. (Banned my ass)

A boost to carbon trading may come from the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 (Waxman-Markey bill) would take effect 2012, and was recently passed by the House. The bill would limit, or "cap," the amount of carbon emissions that companies can produce each year.

They are also setting up the CME Green Exchange, which is a separate entity, designed as a partnership with major financial institutions. Their partners include Morgan Stanley (MS), Credit Suisse (CS), Goldman Sachs (GS), JPMorgan (JPM), Merrill Lynch (BAC), and Constellation Energy (CEG). They would be trading the same environmental contracts and awaiting CFTC approval.

Matt Taibbi nailed it in RS this year: "the first thing you need to know about Goldman Sachs is that it is everywhere. The world's most powerful investment bank is a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money."

musik_knut

musik_knut Avatar

Location: Third Stone From The Sun
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 3:46pm

 hippiechick wrote:

Why do we let fools affect policy???
 

hc,
Seasonal salutations,
Not to start anything, but that question about fools is now being flipped on its head.
First class of BI101, you learn the scientific method, a method from which widely accepted good, solid fundamentals of a scientific endeavour, flow That first class lesson is done for many reasons, notably or perhaps chiefly, so that your work, whether in school or in a research facility, is from a methodology stand, unassailable. From the emails that caused a global maelstrom, it is obvious that not only was the scientific method not followed, but the singular greatest NO NO by anyone in the sciences, that of pushing/touting/publishing fradulent/doctored/manipulated/hidden data, became the MO for some in the climate game.
It is most telling that many zealots of the Religion of Climate attack the revelation of the emails. Again, attempting to fudge realities. The reality is not found in the sudden knowledge of such emails and the sinister plots and twists behind them, but that any group of scientists would conspire on such a scale with a topic of such prominence. And that conspiracy appears to be? Fraud/deceit/threats. Doesn't that make this group and perhaps others who might have engaged in the same absolutely forbidden methods they employed, fools?
And to your statement about fools: sounds like the approach favored by many on the matter of the global climate: the deal is sold, case dismissed. There will be and never should have been, free and unbridled dissent so say some zealots. And now we understandy why. A free discussion with a completely open sharing of data would have revealed what took place in the darkest days ever for science. The folks who have so smeared the world of good science, came up just short of suggesting snuffing out dissenters. Guess we can be thankful in this Holiday Season that they only desired their tongues be held and free speech be damned.
mk
Welly

Welly Avatar

Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 3:19pm

 hippiechick wrote:

Why do we let fools affect policy???
 
Cause everyone gets to have a say?


hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 3:19pm

 Welly wrote:


 
Why do we let fools affect policy???

Welly

Welly Avatar

Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 3:17pm


MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 12:26pm

 miamizsun wrote:

I agree.

How can we get the corrupt immoral politicians uninvolved?

(unfortunately, when there's money, power, control, nebulous plans and unaccountability, bad guys show up)
 

A certain amount of corruption is inevitable- actually if you look at the global government corruption table generally speaking many of those high up the table are also very keen to move ahead with Copenhagen.  As to the plans for Copenhagen- it's not how I would do it either but it is better than nothing and it is a step on the road to changing the way we do things.

I should probably explain that I'm a pragmatic rather than an idealistic person.


miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 12:18pm

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


The problem I have is that is it playing as a domestic political event in the USA.  It's not- this is a worldwide negotiation.  It's not just about your bloody government.

 
I agree.

How can we get the corrupt immoral politicians uninvolved?

(unfortunately, when there's money, power, control, nebulous plans and unaccountability, bad guys show up)

MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 12:06pm

 miamizsun wrote:

Sounds like Pascal's wager to me {#Wink}

I have no problem being more efficient, cleaning up the environment, etc.

I do have a problem with corruption and theft in the name of doing so.

If you were in charge, how would you handle the situation?

Wouldn't it make sense to make changes with the least amount of harm? (philosophically speaking)

Cut waste and redirect resources in a intelligent manner in line with the objective?

Of course you/we would.

Now what do we see happening?

And why would we choose to put incompetent people in charge?

Are we crazy? {#Stupid}

 

The problem I have is that is it playing as a domestic political event in the USA.  It's not- this is a worldwide negotiation.  It's not just about your bloody government.
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 11:53am

 Inamorato wrote:

As usual, Thomas Friedman is right on the mark in his most recent column.

Going Cheney on Climate

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Excerpt:

If we prepare for climate change by building a clean-power economy, but climate change turns out to be a hoax, what would be the result? Well, during a transition period, we would have higher energy prices. But gradually we would be driving battery-powered electric cars and powering more and more of our homes and factories with wind, solar, nuclear and second-generation biofuels. We would be much less dependent on oil dictators who have drawn a bull’s-eye on our backs; our trade deficit would improve; the dollar would strengthen; and the air we breathe would be cleaner. In short, as a country, we would be stronger, more innovative and more energy independent.

 (Full piece)



 
Sounds like Pascal's wager to me {#Wink}

I have no problem being more efficient, cleaning up the environment, etc.

I do have a problem with corruption and theft in the name of doing so.

If you were in charge, how would you handle the situation?

Wouldn't it make sense to make changes with the least amount of harm? (philosophically speaking)

Cut waste and redirect resources in a intelligent manner in line with the objective?

Of course you/we would.

Now what do we see happening?

And why would we choose to put incompetent people in charge?

Are we crazy? {#Stupid}
HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 11:42am

Good one  {#Lol}
Welly

Welly Avatar

Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 11:40am


Inamorato

Inamorato Avatar

Location: Twin Cities
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 10, 2009 - 4:27am

As usual, Thomas Friedman is right on the mark in his most recent column.

Going Cheney on Climate

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

Excerpt:

If we prepare for climate change by building a clean-power economy, but climate change turns out to be a hoax, what would be the result? Well, during a transition period, we would have higher energy prices. But gradually we would be driving battery-powered electric cars and powering more and more of our homes and factories with wind, solar, nuclear and second-generation biofuels. We would be much less dependent on oil dictators who have drawn a bull’s-eye on our backs; our trade deficit would improve; the dollar would strengthen; and the air we breathe would be cleaner. In short, as a country, we would be stronger, more innovative and more energy independent.

 (Full piece)


Welly

Welly Avatar

Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 9, 2009 - 3:29pm

 Zep wrote:

This is politics, and a particularly unwieldy variety at that: international politics.  Reaching consensus policy is ugly. It's like making sausage: no one wants to see it being done.  But there it is, and stakeholders have to get in and scrap. Meanwhile, observers seem to be expecting roses and butterflies, with smiles all around, attendant to an organised process.

Forget about the rival texts.  Many of them are trial balloons. Forget the markups; quibbles can be sustantive - e.g., percent of GHGs - or trivial - e.g., comma or semi-colon.  It is still too early to call Copenhagen "shambles." There will be a lot of backroom deals made for support.  In a way, it's like a political nomination convention, with dozens of "candidates."  China is trying to broker a deal, and can likely deliver a huge bloc.  

 
Totally {#Yes}
Zep

Zep Avatar



Posted: Dec 9, 2009 - 3:27pm

 Welly wrote:

Gwynne Dyer: Real world politics at Copenhagen

Copenhagen is turning into exactly the sort of shambles everybody feared it would be. The only official text still has almost 2,000 square brackets indicating points of disagreement, although there is less than two weeks to go. And now all the rival, unofficial texts are starting to emerge.

The first to be leaked was a Danish proposal that was backed by a number of other industrialised countries. It would simply scrap the Kyoto protocol, the only legally binding treaty in existence that makes countries reduce emissions, and ditch the measures it contains on financial assistance and technology transfer to poor countries. A new treaty would be constructed on a green-field site, with everything up for grabs.

 
This is politics, and a particularly unwieldy variety at that: international politics.  Reaching consensus policy is ugly. It's like making sausage: no one wants to see it being done.  But there it is, and stakeholders have to get in and scrap. Meanwhile, observers seem to be expecting roses and butterflies, with smiles all around, attendant to an organised process. All of these conventions go down like this, especially with so many delegates. 

Forget about the rival texts.  Many of them are trial balloons. Forget the markups; quibbles can be sustantive - e.g., percent of GHGs - or trivial - e.g., comma or semi-colon.  It is still too early to call Copenhagen "shambles." There will be a lot of backroom deals made for support.  In a way, it's like a political nomination convention, with dozens of "candidates."  China is trying to broker a deal, and can likely deliver a huge bloc.  


Welly

Welly Avatar

Location: Lotusland
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 9, 2009 - 3:02pm

Gwynne Dyer: Real world politics at Copenhagen

Copenhagen is turning into exactly the sort of shambles everybody feared it would be. The only official text still has almost 2,000 square brackets indicating points of disagreement, although there is less than two weeks to go. And now all the rival, unofficial texts are starting to emerge.

The first to be leaked was a Danish proposal that was backed by a number of other industrialised countries. It would simply scrap the Kyoto protocol, the only legally binding treaty in existence that makes countries reduce emissions, and ditch the measures it contains on financial assistance and technology transfer to poor countries. A new treaty would be constructed on a green-field site, with everything up for grabs.

The developing countries, needless to say, were furious—but in the next few days the BASIC group (Brazil, South Africa, India, and China) will release its own proposed text. The least developed countries, the African bloc and the overall G77/China grouping are also expected to present their own texts, as are the small island states.

The last group, unsurprisingly, is threatening to veto any outcome that does not create a legally binding treaty, because it contains a number of small island countries that are likely to disappear entirely if the sea level rises even a metre. Yet it is very hard to believe that a binding treaty can be negotiated in the next seven or eight days—the conference ends on December 18—and in the end the island states will probably be bribed and bullied into accepting something less.

One hundred and ten heads of state will show up for the final couple of days, so SOMETHING will have to emerge that can be represented as a success. But it is likely to be merely a ringing statement of principles that steers around all the unresolved disputes, and then everyone will go home leaving the job half-done.

But cheer up. “Last chances” are rarely what they seem. The job of removing all the square brackets from the text will probably be resumed early next year, with the goal of bringing something closer to a final draft back to another Conference of the Parties as soon as possible. (This is COP 15, and COP 16 is already scheduled for Mexico City next summer).

So what does this process remind you of? If it were all happening within one country, and the blocs of states manoeuvring at Copenhagen were just local interest groups defending their turf, then you would recognise it instantly. It is the normal political process we are all familiar with, transposed to the global scale. And that is new.

It is hard to celebrate a process as clumsy, and occasionally as ugly, as the horse-trading and arm-twisting going on at Copenhagen, but that is how human politics works. We may all recognise that there is a global emergency, but every government still has its own interests to protect. Nevertheless, we have come a long way.

Seventy-five years ago there were only about fifty independent countries in the world, and more than half of the human race lived in somebody else’s empire. The one existing international organisation with any pretensions to global authority, the League of Nations, had collapsed, and we were entering the worst war in the history of mankind.

Forty years ago, there was a new, more ambitious global organisation, the United Nations, created mainly to prevent more such wars, and in particular a nuclear war. There were a hundred independent countries, many of them dictatorships, but they did represent the interests of their people better than the empires. The world was divided ideologically between East and West and economically between North and South, but the realisation was dawning that in some sense we were all in the same boat—and in the end we did avoid nuclear war.

Now there are 192 governments at the Copenhagen conference, most of them democratic, and they KNOW that we are all in the same boat. That’s why they are there. So now, for the first time in history, we have real global politics. It is as messy and incoherent as politics at any other level, but it is better than what we had before.

There are those on the right who think that climate change is a left-wing plot to impose a world government on everybody, but nothing of the sort is remotely likely. Those who built the first atomic bombs were not plotting to create the United Nations, nor did the scientists who first detected global warming have the Copenhagen conference as their ultimate goal.

We are all just dealing as best we can with threats that require a global response. We bring our old political habits with us, because there is no better model available. And yes, if we succeed, the world will be more politically integrated than ever before. Not because it is desirable—on that there are many possible views—but because it is necessary.

Published in the Georgia Straight


Zep

Zep Avatar



Posted: Dec 9, 2009 - 2:01pm

 steeler wrote:
I did not know that U.S. and China emit 40 percent of global greenhouse gasses. Interesting to see how China tries to align itself with the developing countries.   As Edie said yesterday, a lot of this is about being good stewards of the planet.  On this issue, U.S. and China have an obligation to lead. 
 
China's alignment reflects both economics and global politics.  By being a developing country, their GHG emissions caps will not be as low as they would be in Europe, Japan, or the US, so they can continue to burn lots of coal.  Their stance permits them to wield a lot of power in the league of developing nations, and effectively act as leader and spokesperson for over half of the world's population.  This in turn gives them entry into locking up contracts with Nigeria, for example, for oil trade. 

islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 9, 2009 - 1:49pm

 Beaker wrote:


Say .. anyone paying attention to what Soros is up to of late ...? heh


 

I thought Rupert Murdoch was paying you to keep tabs on him, so I haven't been watching. Did he get away?

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