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Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Climate Change Page: Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 90, 91, 92 ... 104, 105, 106  Next
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Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 8:11am

 HazzeSwede wrote:
  beggin your pardon,,not so much any more,,new batteries,elevating water,heating the same,saving in the ground etc.

He's quite correct. The energy density of the methods you mention is terrible (they take up a lot of space) and they are very leaky. That low energy density imposes a terrible environmental cost too—look at the acreage drowned by hydroelectric reservoirs. And look at the energy required to make a lithium-ion battery.

What does work, and works very well, is "grid storage". If you have power plants that can change their output level quickly (like, say, a nuke plant) you use that to fill in the gaps when the other methods slow down. Then you don't bother trying to store energy, just generate what you need.

HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 6:21am

 Zep wrote:

The G77 could make a lot of political trouble for the rest of the world, that's for sure.  It's going to depend on where China aligns herself. 
 
   The new world leader ! {#Yes}
   (they bought my favorite car brand from GM,,{#Razz}  today !) SAAB !
   The management of GM,,,SUCK !  {#Grumpy}


Zep

Zep Avatar



Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 6:00am

 HazzeSwede wrote:
Told you Zep,,war is coming !
 
The G77 could make a lot of political trouble for the rest of the world, that's for sure.  It's going to depend on where China aligns herself. 

HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 5:57am

Told you Zep,,war is coming !
HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 5:55am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:


  loved the osmosis plant you drew to our attention!

 
    Well,THANK YOU ! And thank the "Norrbaggarna" for their hard work !
    It will pay off,,any place where fresh water meets salt,one can have a plant =
   a small nuc one.

 

Zep

Zep Avatar



Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 5:53am

From the Beeb...  Too early to say what it means for the convention itself, and for hammering out an agreement.

Climate negotiations 'suspended'
By Richard Black - Environment correspondent, BBC News website, Copenhagen

Negotiations at the UN climate summit have been suspended after developing countries withdrew their co-operation.

Delegations were angry at what they saw as moves by the Danish host government to sideline talks on more emission cuts under the Kyoto Protocol.

As news spread around the conference centre, activists chanted "We stand with Africa - Kyoto targets now".

Informal talks continue, and the UN climate convention head said the formal agenda should resume in the afternoon.

Blocs representing poor countries vulnerable to climate change have been adamant that rich nations must commit to emission cuts beyond 2012 under the Kyoto Protocol.

But the EU and the developed world in general has promoted the idea of an entirely new agreement, replacing the protocol.

Developing countries fear they would lose many of the gains they made when the Kyoto agreement was signed in 1997.

Previously during this meeting - formally called the Conference of the Parties (COP) 15 - developing countries have accused the Danish chairs of ignoring their concerns.

"The president of the COP (Danish climate minister Connie Hedegaard) is absolutely committed to violate any democratic processes," said G77 chief negotiator Lumumba Di-Aping as he explained the latest development.

Last week, the Pacific island nation of Tuvalu forced a suspension after insisting that proposals to amend the UN climate convention and Kyoto Protocol be debated in full.

'Losing time'

At a news conference earlier in the day, UK Climate Secretary Ed Miliband said that for the developed world to commit to further cuts under the Kyoto Protocol would be "irresponsible for the climate".

He said it would leave some of the world's biggest emitters without targets for cutting emissions.

Many developing countries have been arguing for a "twin track" approach, whereby countries with existing targets under the Kyoto Protocol (all developed nations except the US) stay under that umbrella, with the US and major developing economies making their carbon pledges under a new protocol.

Kim Carstensen, director of the global climate initiative with environment group WWF, said that much more movement was needed on the Kyoto Protocol negotiations here.

"The point is being made very loudly that African countries and the wider G77 bloc will not accept non-action on the Kyoto Protocol, and they're really afraid that a deal has been stitched up behind their backs," he told BBC News.

While understanding the G77 position, he said the suspension could affect progress towards a deal.

"We're losing time, and that's a serious matter; because for every minute we lose on one issue, the chances of getting to the bottom of the next issue diminish."

The Danish government has yet to make any formal response; but Australian Climate Minister Penny Wong described the suspension as "regrettable".

Yvo de Boer, executive secretary of the UN climate change convention, predicted that the negotiations would get back on track in the early afternoon.

"The vast majority of countries here want to see the continuation of the Kyoto Protocol," he said.

"I'm not aware that any countries are trying to block anything."

An African bloc walkout during prepatory talks in Barcelona in November proved unpopular with other developing countries, in particular some small island nations.


 




NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 5:41am

 HazzeSwede wrote:

   I rate this post a # 9 ! {#Clap}    {#Smile}
 

  loved the osmosis plant you drew to our attention!
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 5:39am

 Xeric wrote:

Pointing out that one of the glaring gaps in our energy technology is storage
 

whoever solves that problem will become a very rich person.
HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 5:38am

 Xeric wrote:

Pointing out that one of the glaring gaps in our energy technology is storage


   beggin your pardon,,not so much any more,,new batteries,elevating water,heating the same,saving in the ground etc.


Xeric

Xeric Avatar

Location: Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 5:27am

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


I was just going to post "yes".  The nuclear power thing is the "gap" because wind, solar etc don't (at the moment) have the on/off capacity for flexibility that is needed.

 
Pointing out that one of the glaring gaps in our energy technology is storage

HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 4:19am

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


I was just going to post "yes".  The nuclear power thing is the "gap" because wind, solar etc don't (at the moment) have the on/off capacity for flexibility that is needed.

    Not only that,,will also,if I have the correct info,burn the waste we already have and the time
    to make it "safe" will be 1000 years instead 100 000 !


MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 4:02am

 HazzeSwede wrote:

   I rate this post a # 9 ! {#Clap}    {#Smile}
 

I was just going to post "yes".  The nuclear power thing is the "gap" because wind, solar etc don't (at the moment) have the on/off capacity for flexibility that is needed.
HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 3:20am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
4Gen nuclear power plants.  I honestly do not see any viable future without them and I am speaking as an environmentalist.

I am all in favor of using every possible alternative energy source that returns a net energy gain and does not pollute the environment:

Wind
Solar
Tide
Osmosis

But I think we are kidding ourselves big time if we think we are going to generate enough energy from these sources in the short time left.

(BTW that short time left is NOT the time from now until resources run out.
The short time left is the time between now and the time it becomes economically unfeasible to exploit the few remaining natural resources).

Moreover, the energy supplied by 4Gen nuclear will hopefully give us enough time to get sufficient fully renewable sources (like osmosis plants, solar, etc) up and running.

As for all the climate change deniers: I don't really care whether you think the climate is changing or not. What bugs me most about your world view is somehow the tacit assumption you seem to make that the future will somehow carry on just like the past with us able to buy in everything we need if we can't produce it ourselves.

This totally ignores the fact that we have come to close to exhausting the bountiful resources of our own countries (I mean, how long would the States survive if imports stopped tomorrow?) and are actually buying in the deficit from poorer countries eager to sell it to us. Fine, worked so far, but what if these "poorer" countries are no longer willing to sell it to us? What if they enter the world market as net buyers of resources?

I mean seriously, the current first world lifestyle is simply unsustainable for 6 billion people. This is a fact. Either we change the way we live or we throw our ideals out the window and buy bigger guns to keep 80% of the world in abject poverty. This is what really drives me loopy. Not the whole climate change scenario.

 
   I rate this post a # 9 ! {#Clap}    {#Smile}

NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 2:04am

4Gen nuclear power plants.  I honestly do not see any viable future without them and I am speaking as an environmentalist.

I am all in favor of using every possible alternative energy source that returns a net energy gain and does not pollute the environment:

Wind
Solar
Tide
Osmosis

But I think we are kidding ourselves big time if we think we are going to generate enough energy from these sources in the short time left.

(BTW that short time left is NOT the time from now until resources run out.
The short time left is the time between now and the time it becomes economically unfeasible to exploit the few remaining natural resources).

Moreover, the energy supplied by 4Gen nuclear will hopefully give us enough time to get sufficient fully renewable sources (like osmosis plants, solar, etc) up and running.

As for all the climate change deniers: I don't really care whether you think the climate is changing or not. What bugs me most about your world view is somehow the tacit assumption you seem to make that the future will somehow carry on just like the past with us able to buy in everything we need if we can't produce it ourselves.

This totally ignores the fact that we have come to close to exhausting the bountiful resources of our own countries (I mean, how long would the States survive if imports stopped tomorrow?) and are actually buying in the deficit from poorer countries eager to sell it to us. Fine, worked so far, but what if these "poorer" countries are no longer willing to sell it to us? What if they enter the world market as net buyers of resources?

I mean seriously, the current first world lifestyle is simply unsustainable for 6 billion people. This is a fact. Either we change the way we live or we throw our ideals out the window and buy bigger guns to keep 80% of the world in abject poverty. This is what really drives me loopy. Not the whole climate change scenario.
HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 12:53am

 Zep wrote:

That would be weather.  Climate is long term, say, over about 5000 nights.  So you have one data point out of 5000, which is, as we say in American, a drop in the bucket. 

Here's a good resource to learn how to distinguish between climate and weather.

 
   {#Lol}  Perfect Zep !  I only hope that its not too complicated for Beaks and Co !

Zep

Zep Avatar



Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 7:06am

 Beaker wrote:
Just got in from being out on this warming planet.  Out there right now its a balmy -36C of warming.  That's -33F in American.  Tomorrow's forecast high?  -30C.  Definitely a warming trend.   Oooh yah.
 
That would be weather.  Climate is long term, say, over about 5000 nights.  So you have one data point out of 5000, which is, as we say in American, a drop in the bucket. 

Here's a good resource to learn how to distinguish between climate and weather.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 5:02am

 Zep wrote:

For thousands of years, humans had the ability to move on when resources were used up.  If the land was exhausted and could not supply the nutrients needed to grow crops, or if game were over-hunted and became scarce, then people moved elsewhere.  

We don't have that luxury any more.  There isn't any virgin land to claim and exploit.  We need to live within the bounds of what we have in front of us.  Mining coal, oil, and timber demonstrate that. Assessing the longevity of remaining oil and coal reserves doesn't matter: there's a finite limit.  At least timber is renewable, though not if improperly harvested.  

This will present a severe challenge to our current economic models based on growth.  If we can't grow our lives and their economies, what do we turn to next?  How do we measure economic utility?  

 
Growth will cease.  It will do so whether we choose to make it or not.  There are too many of us.

Zep

Zep Avatar



Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 5:00am

 kurtster wrote:
....  If we can't mine minerals for fuel, such as coal and oil, all we will have is wood.  History has shown that when the trees are gone, the adjancent, dependent civilizations also disappear.
 
For thousands of years, humans had the ability to move on when resources were used up.  If the land was exhausted and could not supply the nutrients needed to grow crops, or if game were over-hunted and became scarce, then people moved elsewhere.  

We don't have that luxury any more.  There isn't any virgin land to claim and exploit.  We need to live within the bounds of what we have in front of us.  Mining coal, oil, and timber demonstrate that. Assessing the longevity of remaining oil and coal reserves doesn't matter: there's a finite limit.  At least timber is renewable, though not if improperly harvested.  

This will present a severe challenge to our current economic models based on growth.  If we can't grow our lives and their economies, what do we turn to next?  How do we measure economic utility?  
HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 2:21am

 Zep wrote:

Nasty business with the protestors today - hundreds arrested for testing cobblestones on shop windows.  Don't they know that just contributes to climate change by letting out all that warm air?  Evidently wearing masks is also illegal in København.  Guess I have to leave my Donald Duck special at home next summer. 
 

 
    Nasty will get nastier and eventually full out war like,I'm afraid !

BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: planting flowers


Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 1:12am

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:
Oh yeah- we have visited your part of the world before and just as soon as the little one is better at long journeys we'll make it to the West coast.  Just talking about booking tickets to New York for Easter last night.

 
Cool! Please know you're all welcome here. There will even be a car (Volvo station wagon) for you to use here.

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