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NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 5:41am

 HazzeSwede wrote:

   I rate this post a # 9 ! {#Clap}    {#Smile}
 

  loved the osmosis plant you drew to our attention!
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 5:39am

 Xeric wrote:

Pointing out that one of the glaring gaps in our energy technology is storage
 

whoever solves that problem will become a very rich person.
HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 5:38am

 Xeric wrote:

Pointing out that one of the glaring gaps in our energy technology is storage


   beggin your pardon,,not so much any more,,new batteries,elevating water,heating the same,saving in the ground etc.


Xeric

Xeric Avatar

Location: Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 5:27am

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


I was just going to post "yes".  The nuclear power thing is the "gap" because wind, solar etc don't (at the moment) have the on/off capacity for flexibility that is needed.

 
Pointing out that one of the glaring gaps in our energy technology is storage

HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 4:19am

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


I was just going to post "yes".  The nuclear power thing is the "gap" because wind, solar etc don't (at the moment) have the on/off capacity for flexibility that is needed.

    Not only that,,will also,if I have the correct info,burn the waste we already have and the time
    to make it "safe" will be 1000 years instead 100 000 !


MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 4:02am

 HazzeSwede wrote:

   I rate this post a # 9 ! {#Clap}    {#Smile}
 

I was just going to post "yes".  The nuclear power thing is the "gap" because wind, solar etc don't (at the moment) have the on/off capacity for flexibility that is needed.
HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 3:20am

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
4Gen nuclear power plants.  I honestly do not see any viable future without them and I am speaking as an environmentalist.

I am all in favor of using every possible alternative energy source that returns a net energy gain and does not pollute the environment:

Wind
Solar
Tide
Osmosis

But I think we are kidding ourselves big time if we think we are going to generate enough energy from these sources in the short time left.

(BTW that short time left is NOT the time from now until resources run out.
The short time left is the time between now and the time it becomes economically unfeasible to exploit the few remaining natural resources).

Moreover, the energy supplied by 4Gen nuclear will hopefully give us enough time to get sufficient fully renewable sources (like osmosis plants, solar, etc) up and running.

As for all the climate change deniers: I don't really care whether you think the climate is changing or not. What bugs me most about your world view is somehow the tacit assumption you seem to make that the future will somehow carry on just like the past with us able to buy in everything we need if we can't produce it ourselves.

This totally ignores the fact that we have come to close to exhausting the bountiful resources of our own countries (I mean, how long would the States survive if imports stopped tomorrow?) and are actually buying in the deficit from poorer countries eager to sell it to us. Fine, worked so far, but what if these "poorer" countries are no longer willing to sell it to us? What if they enter the world market as net buyers of resources?

I mean seriously, the current first world lifestyle is simply unsustainable for 6 billion people. This is a fact. Either we change the way we live or we throw our ideals out the window and buy bigger guns to keep 80% of the world in abject poverty. This is what really drives me loopy. Not the whole climate change scenario.

 
   I rate this post a # 9 ! {#Clap}    {#Smile}

NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 2:04am

4Gen nuclear power plants.  I honestly do not see any viable future without them and I am speaking as an environmentalist.

I am all in favor of using every possible alternative energy source that returns a net energy gain and does not pollute the environment:

Wind
Solar
Tide
Osmosis

But I think we are kidding ourselves big time if we think we are going to generate enough energy from these sources in the short time left.

(BTW that short time left is NOT the time from now until resources run out.
The short time left is the time between now and the time it becomes economically unfeasible to exploit the few remaining natural resources).

Moreover, the energy supplied by 4Gen nuclear will hopefully give us enough time to get sufficient fully renewable sources (like osmosis plants, solar, etc) up and running.

As for all the climate change deniers: I don't really care whether you think the climate is changing or not. What bugs me most about your world view is somehow the tacit assumption you seem to make that the future will somehow carry on just like the past with us able to buy in everything we need if we can't produce it ourselves.

This totally ignores the fact that we have come to close to exhausting the bountiful resources of our own countries (I mean, how long would the States survive if imports stopped tomorrow?) and are actually buying in the deficit from poorer countries eager to sell it to us. Fine, worked so far, but what if these "poorer" countries are no longer willing to sell it to us? What if they enter the world market as net buyers of resources?

I mean seriously, the current first world lifestyle is simply unsustainable for 6 billion people. This is a fact. Either we change the way we live or we throw our ideals out the window and buy bigger guns to keep 80% of the world in abject poverty. This is what really drives me loopy. Not the whole climate change scenario.
HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 14, 2009 - 12:53am

 Zep wrote:

That would be weather.  Climate is long term, say, over about 5000 nights.  So you have one data point out of 5000, which is, as we say in American, a drop in the bucket. 

Here's a good resource to learn how to distinguish between climate and weather.

 
   {#Lol}  Perfect Zep !  I only hope that its not too complicated for Beaks and Co !

Zep

Zep Avatar



Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 7:06am

 Beaker wrote:
Just got in from being out on this warming planet.  Out there right now its a balmy -36C of warming.  That's -33F in American.  Tomorrow's forecast high?  -30C.  Definitely a warming trend.   Oooh yah.
 
That would be weather.  Climate is long term, say, over about 5000 nights.  So you have one data point out of 5000, which is, as we say in American, a drop in the bucket. 

Here's a good resource to learn how to distinguish between climate and weather.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 5:02am

 Zep wrote:

For thousands of years, humans had the ability to move on when resources were used up.  If the land was exhausted and could not supply the nutrients needed to grow crops, or if game were over-hunted and became scarce, then people moved elsewhere.  

We don't have that luxury any more.  There isn't any virgin land to claim and exploit.  We need to live within the bounds of what we have in front of us.  Mining coal, oil, and timber demonstrate that. Assessing the longevity of remaining oil and coal reserves doesn't matter: there's a finite limit.  At least timber is renewable, though not if improperly harvested.  

This will present a severe challenge to our current economic models based on growth.  If we can't grow our lives and their economies, what do we turn to next?  How do we measure economic utility?  

 
Growth will cease.  It will do so whether we choose to make it or not.  There are too many of us.

Zep

Zep Avatar



Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 5:00am

 kurtster wrote:
....  If we can't mine minerals for fuel, such as coal and oil, all we will have is wood.  History has shown that when the trees are gone, the adjancent, dependent civilizations also disappear.
 
For thousands of years, humans had the ability to move on when resources were used up.  If the land was exhausted and could not supply the nutrients needed to grow crops, or if game were over-hunted and became scarce, then people moved elsewhere.  

We don't have that luxury any more.  There isn't any virgin land to claim and exploit.  We need to live within the bounds of what we have in front of us.  Mining coal, oil, and timber demonstrate that. Assessing the longevity of remaining oil and coal reserves doesn't matter: there's a finite limit.  At least timber is renewable, though not if improperly harvested.  

This will present a severe challenge to our current economic models based on growth.  If we can't grow our lives and their economies, what do we turn to next?  How do we measure economic utility?  
HazzeSwede

HazzeSwede Avatar

Location: Hammerdal
Gender: Male


Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 2:21am

 Zep wrote:

Nasty business with the protestors today - hundreds arrested for testing cobblestones on shop windows.  Don't they know that just contributes to climate change by letting out all that warm air?  Evidently wearing masks is also illegal in København.  Guess I have to leave my Donald Duck special at home next summer. 
 

 
    Nasty will get nastier and eventually full out war like,I'm afraid !

BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: planting flowers


Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 1:12am

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:
Oh yeah- we have visited your part of the world before and just as soon as the little one is better at long journeys we'll make it to the West coast.  Just talking about booking tickets to New York for Easter last night.

 
Cool! Please know you're all welcome here. There will even be a car (Volvo station wagon) for you to use here.

MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 1:11am

 BlueHeronDruid wrote:

Okay, Mom.





Look forward to meeting you. Someday. It will happen.
  Oh yeah- we have visited your part of the world before and just as soon as the little one is better at long journeys we'll make it to the West coast.  Just talking about booking tickets to New York for Easter last night.  I do get the conflict this raises on the climate change front.  We have an elderly uncle in NY who wants to see the little lad who'll be carrying on the family name.


BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: planting flowers


Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 1:09am

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:


  Well I would hang around and play crossword puzzles but I can't do em and I've got to do the kids brekkie.  You ought to go to bed- it's gone 1am!

 
Okay, Mom.





Look forward to meeting you. Someday. It will happen.

MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 1:06am

 BlueHeronDruid wrote:

Intimately observing their transverse colons?
 

  Well I would hang around and play crossword puzzles but I can't do em and I've got to do the kids brekkie.  You ought to go to bed- it's gone 1am!
BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: planting flowers


Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 1:03am

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:

Thanks gorgeous- nice to see you too.

 I get a bit riled by some of the political shit being stirred up by the climate change sceptics- where the hell were they twenty years ago?
 
Intimately observing their transverse colons?

MrsHobieJoe

MrsHobieJoe Avatar

Location: somewhere in Europe
Gender: Female


Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 1:01am

 BlueHeronDruid wrote:

Hey, Kate! Hope you had a good birthday!

We get this same message from our local meteorology guru. "Is this heavy rain cause by global warming?" And of course he keeps pointing back to climate records, and not yearly weather records.
 
Thanks gorgeous- nice to see you too.

 I get a bit riled by some of the political shit being stirred up by the climate change sceptics- where the hell were they twenty years ago when I was studying this stuff?  It's only got interesting to them now it's finally making an impact on global actions. 

BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: planting flowers


Posted: Dec 13, 2009 - 12:59am

 MrsHobieJoe wrote:
Oh for fs.  Weather- eg a cold or warm day is not climate.

 
Hey, Kate! Hope you had a good birthday!

We get this same message from our local meteorology guru. "Is this heavy rain cause by global warming?" And of course he keeps pointing back to climate records, and not yearly weather records.

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