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dionysius

dionysius Avatar

Location: The People's Republic of Austin
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 2:48pm

 javahnagila wrote:
one word: tolerance

 

I will not just tolerate your new av, I will wholeheartedly support it.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 2:30pm

 maryte wrote:


 

 
Wha?  I didn't say "state's rights."

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 2:28pm

 maryte wrote:

 
Not parsing for you? Works for me.

maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 2:22pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

A state has no rights, only people have rights.  That so many of them choose to give them up to the state is very disturbing to me.
 

 oldslabsides wrote:

They all assume responsibilities that are not those of the national government.  They all represent the abdication of rights and state responsibilities.  They are all financed by a confiscatory system of robbery called taxation.  They are all backed by the police power of the national government.
 

 
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 2:13pm

 maryte wrote:


Of course I accept that about you!  I sure as hell can't change how you feel.  Although I've got to wonder about your concerns that the poor state is having its rights usurped.  Oklahoma must be heaven, because state gubmint in Texas imposes on its citizenry far worse than the federal gubmint...

 
A state has no rights, only people have rights.  That so many of them choose to give them up to the state is very disturbing to me.

maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 2:11pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

Acceptance, say, of the fact that some of us feel very threatened by the power of the state?  That some of us just want to be left alone to take responsibility for ourselves without the intrusions of a nanny state?  Just askin'...
 

Of course I accept that about you!  I sure as hell can't change how you feel.  Although I've got to wonder about your concerns that the poor state is having its rights usurped.  Oklahoma must be heaven, because state gubmint in Texas imposes on its citizenry far worse than the federal gubmint...
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 2:03pm

 maryte wrote:


better:  Acceptance

 
Acceptance, say, of the fact that some of us feel very threatened by the power of the state?  That some of us just want to be left alone to take responsibility for ourselves without the intrusions of a nanny state?  Just askin'...

maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:59pm

 javahnagila wrote:
one word: tolerance

 

better:  Acceptance
javahnagila

javahnagila Avatar

Location: Spaced Coast of Florida
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:55pm

one word: tolerance
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:55pm

 zipper wrote:

I so love your communication skills and your ability to grasp the details and apply them to the big picture in a way that anyone can comprehend.
 
That makes at least two of us. {#Yes}
zipper

zipper Avatar



Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:53pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
kurtster wrote:
If the only end user of your product is the government, then it makes sense to me.  The landscaper in Waukegan probably isn't netting more than $400K. 

And what if it isn't? The burden of compliance would fall on anyone doing business with the feds at any level. Or do you want to add yet another accounting/compliance requirement: state what portion of your company's income comes from federal contracting as well, documented with this form and that table and audited by this certified accounting agency, paid for out of overhead. None of which cuts the grass.

It doesn't matter that the guy cutting the grass doesn't make more than $471,000/year (and as far as I'm concerned, bully for him if he does)—he has to prove he doesn't, and proving he doesn't takes time and money. It means there's no point taking on a federal contract for a small job—you'll lose money. You need to take on lots of federal contracts or charge more for them, putting you at a disadvantage to a company that does nothing but. You're accomplishing the opposite of your intent.

You might consider this feel good legislation, where as I see it as a backlash to the outragous missuse of the TARP fund and similar proposals.  A line must be drawn somewhere. 

I consider it both: a misguided attempt to fix a problem caused by red tape with more red tape. Motivating it by a desire to punish those who took advantage of the system Congress put in place doesn't change the outcome or punish those truly responsible. The guy cutting grass didn't get any TARP money.

Imagine the impact on Major League Baseball, which exists in its present form by an Act of Congress as an Anti Trust exempt organization.  Sure, there will be ways to seek out loopholes, there always are.  But just putting this out there for consideration should make people shudder, especially those who have been milking at the governments teet for far to long.

I can imagine the impact on MLB: none at all. An exemption from antitrust law can be undone separately, at any time. So do that, and leave the lawn maintenance guy alone.
Wouldn't you love to see the wages at Haliburton affected by this approach ?  Or how about the wages at Exxon Mobil if they sell fuel to the government ?  Let these companies reinvest the difference in their companies or pay dividends to the stock holders and pay more taxes on earnings not diverted to the same.  I realize this isn't perfect, but do you have a better idea ?  Trillions of dollars have disappeared down ratholes overnight and no one seems to have a meaningful idea as to how to stop it.
 
No, I wouldn't. I'd rather see each company's owners set compensation based on the value added by the employee, or the scarcity and necessity of the work s/he does. Or whatever the owners of the company want to use—it's none of our business. If they pay too much the cost of their goods and services will go up and somebody who pays less gets the job.

You want my idea? Scrap the requirements irrelevant to the actual work. Eliminate the intrusive and burdensome accounting rules that govern every minute detail of doing business with the government; rules that bloat administration within companies and make them uncompetitive with non-governmental customers.

As for TARP and other such boondoggles: even easier. Don't do it. Admit there are problems government is helpless against, and concentrate on the ones it can help with, and should help with.
 
I so love your communication skills and your ability to grasp the details and apply them to the big picture in a way that anyone can comprehend.

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:47pm

kurtster wrote:
If the only end user of your product is the government, then it makes sense to me.  The landscaper in Waukegan probably isn't netting more than $400K. 

And what if it isn't? The burden of compliance would fall on anyone doing business with the feds at any level. Or do you want to add yet another accounting/compliance requirement: state what portion of your company's income comes from federal contracting as well, documented with this form and that table and audited by this certified accounting agency, paid for out of overhead. None of which cuts the grass.

It doesn't matter that the guy cutting the grass doesn't make more than $471,000/year (and as far as I'm concerned, bully for him if he does)—he has to prove he doesn't, and proving he doesn't takes time and money. It means there's no point taking on a federal contract for a small job—you'll lose money. You need to take on lots of federal contracts or charge more for them, putting you at a disadvantage to a company that does nothing but. You're accomplishing the opposite of your intent.

You might consider this feel good legislation, where as I see it as a backlash to the outragous missuse of the TARP fund and similar proposals.  A line must be drawn somewhere. 

I consider it both: a misguided attempt to fix a problem caused by red tape with more red tape. Motivating it by a desire to punish those who took advantage of the system Congress put in place doesn't change the outcome or punish those truly responsible. The guy cutting grass didn't get any TARP money.

Imagine the impact on Major League Baseball, which exists in its present form by an Act of Congress as an Anti Trust exempt organization.  Sure, there will be ways to seek out loopholes, there always are.  But just putting this out there for consideration should make people shudder, especially those who have been milking at the governments teet for far to long.

I can imagine the impact on MLB: none at all. An exemption from antitrust law can be undone separately, at any time. So do that, and leave the lawn maintenance guy alone.

Wouldn't you love to see the wages at Haliburton affected by this approach ?  Or how about the wages at Exxon Mobil if they sell fuel to the government ?  Let these companies reinvest the difference in their companies or pay dividends to the stock holders and pay more taxes on earnings not diverted to the same.  I realize this isn't perfect, but do you have a better idea ?  Trillions of dollars have disappeared down ratholes overnight and no one seems to have a meaningful idea as to how to stop it.
 
No, I wouldn't. I'd rather see each company's owners set compensation based on the value added by the employee, or the scarcity and necessity of the work s/he does. Or whatever the owners of the company want to use—it's none of our business. If they pay too much the cost of their goods and services will go up and somebody who pays less gets the job.

You want my idea? Scrap the requirements irrelevant to the actual work. Eliminate the intrusive and burdensome accounting rules that govern every minute detail of doing business with the government; rules that bloat administration within companies and make them uncompetitive with non-governmental customers.

As for TARP and other such boondoggles: even easier. Don't do it. Admit there are problems government is helpless against, and concentrate on the ones it can help with, and should help with.

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:44pm

 Beaker wrote:

Sorry Schlabby, I wasn't suggesting you were any one persuasion over another, beyond what we already know - a well-armed man with mullet.


 
Yer pressin' yer luck, Canuck. {#Lol}
maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:42pm

 Beaker wrote:

Some are more liberal than others.  Waaay more liberal.

When the far right does the reacharound and runs into the far left, what do ya call that anyway? 

 



Fixed your typo. 

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:40pm

 Beaker wrote:

Some are more liberal than others.  Waaay more liberal.

When the far left does the reacharound and runs into the far right, what do ya call that anyway? 

 
I think anyone would be hard pressed to describe my positions as either liberal or conservative.  And those libertarians?  Too conservative for me. {#Lol}
Zep

Zep Avatar



Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:39pm

Beaker wrote:
Some are more liberal than others. Waaay more liberal.

When the far left does the reacharound and runs into the far right, what do ya call that anyway?




Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:36pm

 maryte wrote:


All generalities.  Like everyone at RP is a liberal. 

 
There are at least two people around here I can think of who are far better at specifics than myself.  I don't think I was quite as general as your analogy. {#Wink}
maryte

maryte Avatar

Location: Blinding You With Library Science!
Gender: Female


Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:33pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

They all assume responsibilities that are not those of the national government.  They all represent the abdication of rights and state responsibilities.  They are all financed by a confiscatory system of robbery called taxation.  They are all backed by the police power of the national government.
 

All generalities.  Like everyone at RP is a liberal. 
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:29pm

 maryte wrote:


Articulate where all of these organizations have done more harm than good.  That would be thoughtful.

 
They all assume responsibilities that are not those of the national government.  They all represent the abdication of rights and state responsibilities.  They are all financed by a confiscatory system of robbery called taxation.  They are all backed by the police power of the national government.

oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Jan 18, 2009 - 1:27pm

 kurtster wrote:


Life is not without risk {#Wink}

 
Kurt, in spite of my high ideals, you would know infinitely more about that than I.

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