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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 2:24pm

 Umberdog wrote:
And we expect you to speak English too... or French. 

Non sequitur {#Mrgreen}

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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 2:09pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
 
And we expect you to speak English too... or French.
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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 1:55pm

 black321 wrote:
and treat their Mounties like s$#t, I suppose... 

Non sequitur (logic)
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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 1:41pm

 cc_rider wrote:
Them Canadians expect to be treated differently. With, you know, respect and stuff. Dang furriners.

 
and treat their Mounties like s$#t, I suppose...
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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 1:35pm

 black321 wrote:
The key point that broke everything down seems to be the question "where are you going to shop" 
The citizen took offense to this question.  Why?  Did he have a right to take offense?  What was the intent of asking this question?  Perhaps if he answered "Sears" and the guard knew there were no Sears at this shopping mall, he could be catching him a lie.  At borders Ive been asked what my favorite TV show was growing up, and didnt take offense (Happy Days, the early years). 
The point is, the guard is trained to ask questions and look for clues that reveal a lie.  The citizen couldnt provide a straight answer and got defensive over a stupid question....and only escalated his protests when interrogated further (by the second cop who was giving him every chance to relax and play along), rather than realizing his situation. In most cases, when you have nothing to hide and are asked to get out of the car and come inside...most of us start to act real nice real quick.  This guy didnt. From the border cop's perspective, you need to ask why is this guy so bent out of shape over a stupid question?  I do hope that if he was innocent, the worst he got was a few hours in a cell. 

  Them Canadians expect to be treated differently. With, you know, respect and stuff. Dang furriners.


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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 1:31pm

This reminds me of the end of "12 Monkeys." If you've seen it you know what I mean. I won't spoil it for the rest of you.
black321

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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 1:20pm

The key point that broke everything down seems to be the question "where are you going to shop" 
The citizen took offense to this question.  Why?  Did he have a right to take offense?  What was the intent of asking this question?  Perhaps if he answered "Sears" and the guard knew there were no Sears at this shopping mall, he could be catching him a lie.  At borders Ive been asked what my favorite TV show was growing up, and didnt take offense (Happy Days, the early years). 
The point is, the guard is trained to ask questions and look for clues that reveal a lie.  The citizen couldnt provide a straight answer and got defensive over a stupid question....and only escalated his protests when interrogated further (by the second cop who was giving him every chance to relax and play along), rather than realizing his situation. In most cases, when you have nothing to hide and are asked to get out of the car and come inside...most of us start to act real nice real quick.  This guy didnt. From the border cop's perspective, you need to ask why is this guy so bent out of shape over a stupid question?  I do hope that if he was innocent, the worst he got was a few hours in a cell. 
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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 1:10pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you ~ Nietzsche

 
Thus spoke the guy with syphilis.
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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 1:04pm

 Servo wrote:
As do I.

The thing is that a lot of innocent people who used to be able to pass freely between the US and Canada probably have things like a nice day of shopping on their minds, and not the wrath of the Department of Homeland Security.  Depending on your perspective, it was their fault for not checking what kind of trouble they might face by entering the new, militarized US-at-war.  Had they done so, they might have changed their minds and decided that going shopping in a police state was too risky.  And then we'd have no audio recording to discuss and at least the couple would be a lot happier.

I'd say that it's just plain common sense to do as little as possible to raise the ire of ANY armed thug who's holding you prisoner.  If you're not in a position of strength, you have nothing to bargain (or complain) with, so it's best to not even try.

Personally I like the idea that there are still communities of people who feel so innocently empowered to talk back to the authorities.  I can even remember when it was possible to do it in the US without getting your head busted and/or disappearing to a concentration camp for the crime of asking why.
 
There's a couple of things that come to mind.

The status quo and the Stockholm syndrome.

The (practices of the) former USSR and its gulags.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you ~ Nietzsche
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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 1:02pm

 MsJudi wrote:
This makes me ill. I listened to the whole thing and I'm ashamed of us.
 
Guilty until proven innocent? I thought it was the other way around. Welcome to the land of the fee. Sit down, shut up, and do what the bullies tell you to do or else! Have a nice day.
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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 12:51pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
That sounds like a pretty extreme place to be in. I tend to avoid places like that.
 
As do I.

The thing is that a lot of innocent people who used to be able to pass freely between the US and Canada probably have things like a nice day of shopping on their minds, and not the wrath of the Department of Homeland Security.  Depending on your perspective, it was their fault for not checking what kind of trouble they might face by entering the new, militarized US-at-war.  Had they done so, they might have changed their minds and decided that going shopping in a police state was too risky.  And then we'd have no audio recording to discuss and at least the couple would be a lot happier.

I'd say that it's just plain common sense to do as little as possible to raise the ire of ANY armed thug who's holding you prisoner.  If you're not in a position of strength, you have nothing to bargain (or complain) with, so it's best to not even try.

Personally I like the idea that there are still communities of people who feel so innocently empowered to talk back to the authorities.  I can even remember when it was possible to do it in the US without getting your head busted and/or disappearing to a concentration camp for the crime of asking why.


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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 12:13pm

 islander wrote:
The guy in the video you posted put himself in just such a spot. He had several opportunities to avoid going there but he just kept laying down paint and backing into the corner.  The whole thing was wrong an stupid. But the only thing he proved was something we knew all along.  Regardless of priorities, he wasted a lot of ammo on a very small battle in the war on stupid.
 
Again, that depends on the perspective you choose to take.

Arguably he was put in that spot by someone abusing their authority. Certainly it takes more effort to fight that, and the path of least resistance is always available. However, that can also mean you'll be riding in the back of the bus for the rest of your life, because that's just the way things are.

PS: That's why, pragmatically speaking, I have no desire or need whatsoever to cross the border.
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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 12:07pm

Sorry, I'm on the side of the border cops on this one.  They are doing a job, you just need to let them ask their questions and answer honestly. He could have easily found a better way to answer he was browsing different shops,looking for clothes... without being an ass.  And how exactly was this recorded?  Was it a stunt?
islander

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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 12:06pm

 RichardPrins wrote:

That sounds like a pretty extreme place to be in. I tend to avoid places like that.

 
The guy in the video you posted put himself in just such a spot. He had several opportunities to avoid going there but he just kept laying down paint and backing into the corner.  The whole thing was wrong an stupid. But the only thing he proved was something we knew all along.  Regardless of priorities, he wasted a lot of ammo on a very small battle in the war on stupid.
islander

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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 12:03pm

 oldslabsides wrote:

In the three incidents I was involved with, my refusal to roll over was the difference between getting a traffic citation for something I didn't do, or not getting a citation for something I didn't do.  Those three incidents have given me the perception that traffic cops will walk all over you if allowed to do so.  Knowing I've not done anything wrong and not playing their bullshit intimidation game has so far worked pretty well for me, thanks.

 
I never said you should just roll over. I did say you should be aware of your situation and circumstances (and I mean the larger you, not the slabby you). You (slabby) avoided a ticket and didn't spend a night in the pokey, so you walked the line well. 

There are times when you can push back and there are times when you can, but should not. If I sense a guy looking for a fight at the border crossing, he might get one joke to lighten the mood, but if he doesn't cheer up it's "yes sir, no sir" until I'm clear. At the end of the day I'm either in Whistler or on my boat (Cuban rum in hand either way). Living well is the best revenge. 
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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 12:03pm

 Servo wrote:
As a general rule, when you're cornered with no hope of escape, out-manned, out-gunned and don't have any form of backup on the way, your best strategy is to say and do whatever it takes to keep yourself alive until you're rescued, or you find a much better opportunity to fight your way to freedom.
 
That sounds like a pretty extreme place to be in. I tend to avoid places like that.
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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 12:01pm

 islander wrote:
And who is the better rebel - The guy who takes a beating for defying the badge at the end of a stupid policy, or the guy who gets waved on with enough Cuban rum and cigars to last through the next weekend?
 
I guess that depends on what you're really interested in or care about.

I don't care for either Cuban rum or cigars, though if I would, I'm thankfully in a position where I wouldn't have to smuggle those items because of twisted government policies.

Beware of slippery slopes...
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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 12:01pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
I was taught in civics class that it's in your best interest to remain polite to cops. That's obviously not the same as being subservient or in awe of authority. Even if that might be pragmatic.
 
As a general rule, when you're cornered with no hope of escape, out-manned, out-gunned and don't have any form of backup on the way, your best strategy is to say and do whatever it takes to keep yourself alive until you're rescued, or you find a much better opportunity to fight your way to freedom.


MsJudi

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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 11:57am

 RichardPrins wrote:


Border nazi: "If you’re told to do something, do it without asking the reason.”

 
This makes me ill. I listened to the whole thing and I'm ashamed of us.
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Posted: Oct 17, 2012 - 11:57am

 islander wrote:

And who is the better rebel - The guy who takes a beating for defying the badge at the end of a stupid policy, or the guy who gets waved on with enough Cuban rum and cigars to last through the next weekend?

 
In the three incidents I was involved with, my refusal to roll over was the difference between getting a traffic citation for something I didn't do, or not getting a citation for something I didn't do.  Those three incidents have given me the perception that traffic cops will walk all over you if allowed to do so.  Knowing I've not done anything wrong and not playing their bullshit intimidation game has so far worked pretty well for me, thanks.
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