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Index » Music » Whatever » Women and music Page: Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
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hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 6:50pm

 sirdroseph wrote:

I wouldn't want to bore the forum, but if pressed I could write a doctoral style thesis on the horrors of Billy Corgan's voice. Oh and I can't stand Margo Timmons voice either, one's a dude, one's a chick I really don't care. I like some voices and don't like others, the type of reproductive organs the singer possesses is of no concern to me.

 
This discussion is really about separate classes for teaching girls how to play rock music.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 6:47pm

 Proclivities wrote:

The Cowboy Junkies comment doesn't mention Margo Timmins, or gender; it seems more about the band (or possibly, all Canadian musicians) and is almost worth ignoring since it is rife with typographical errors, but I understand your point about gender biases and I have seen it here and elsewhere.  I do remember someone posting in some thread on how they didn't like female vocals, but I've even seen and heard similar comments made by women, or at least expressing preference for male vocals.  It's possible, that these days, women are probably better-represented in the music world than they were in the past, but still, primarily as performers, not as management or label-owning people.  I think some of the attitude is still left over from a patriarchal culture, which has been, more-or-less, prevalent throughout the world - not that that makes it acceptable.
If you want to read an abundance of hateful commentary for male singers, check the comments for just about any song by The Talking Heads, The Cure, Smashing Pumpkins, or The Smiths.

 
I wouldn't want to bore the forum, but if pressed I could write a doctoral style thesis on the horrors of Billy Corgan's voice. Oh and I can't stand Margo Timmons voice either, one's a dude, one's a chick I really don't care. I like some voices and don't like others, the type of reproductive organs the singer possesses is of no concern to me.
arighter2

arighter2 Avatar

Location: dubuque
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 6:21pm

Personally, I prefer female singers.
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 5:07pm

 MsJudi wrote:
  
I don't want to try and weigh in on the rest of this topic, and haven't even read the majority of the posts. I only want to address this one issue that Deni brings up, and it's an important one to me. I'm about to stick my head into the lion's mouth, and I offer fair warning to all comers: rational and reasoned disagreements are always welcome with me; vitriol and insults will be summarily ignored. 

I am thoroughly annoyed by how little women are represented in the music world and moreso, how the listening public react to them. Look at our own song comment boards...


On Cowboy Junkies, My Little Basquiat

this is one godawful talentless amateurish act.
they got away with it for a while with their ironic ennui shtick, mocking rock and roll.
now it is they who is mocked.

This list could go on for literally pages, but you get the idea. It seems clear to me that while all of these songs and artists obviously have their fans here on RP and get great comments when their music is played, enough listeners hate them simply for their female voices. I wish I could find the one comment I saw someone make a couple of years ago that he just simply didn't like the female voice in rock and roll. Huh? I mean really, HUH?

There is a bias against female performers, and it is based- from all appearances- solely on gender.

 
The "Cowboy Junkies" comment doesn't mention Margo Timmins, or gender; it seems more about the band (or possibly, all Canadian musicians) and is almost worth ignoring since it is rife with typographical errors, but I understand your point about gender biases and I have seen it here and elsewhere.  I do remember someone posting in some thread on how they didn't like female vocals, but I've even seen and heard similar comments made by women, or at least expressing preference for male vocals.  It's possible, that these days, women are probably better-represented in the music world than they were in the past, but still, primarily as performers, not as management or label-owning people.  I think some of the attitude is still left over from a patriarchal culture, which has been, more-or-less, prevalent throughout the world - not that that makes it acceptable.
If you want to read an abundance of hateful commentary for male singers, check the comments for just about any song by The Talking Heads, The Cure, Smashing Pumpkins, or The Smiths.


mzpro5

mzpro5 Avatar

Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 5:06pm

 MsJudi wrote:



There is a bias against female performers, and it is based- from all appearances- solely on gender.

 
It couldn't possibly be that the responders just don't care for the music.

oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 5:01pm

 MsJudi wrote:


There is a bias against female performers, and it is based- from all appearances- solely on gender.
;
 
I think one can easily find the reasons to support an opinion. My opinion is that people are opinionated, and often, depending on your point of view, their opinion is based on foolishness, as are the ones you cite.  I think those opinions are basically weak projections from insecurity when it concerns women. Very common and not likely to go away, and in fact likely to increase.
On the other hand I can find 100 positive comments for female artists by men for every one of those that are unfairly negative. So calculating:
no contest...Of course, this is only my opinion.{#Wink} {#Daisy}


hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 4:56pm

 MsJudi wrote:

This list could go on for literally pages, but you get the idea. It seems clear to me that while all of these songs and artists obviously have their fans here on RP and get great comments when their music is played, enough listeners hate them simply for their female voices. I wish I could find the one comment I saw someone make a couple of years ago that he just simply didn't like the female voice in rock and roll. Huh? I mean really, HUH?

There is a bias against female performers, and it is based- from all appearances- solely on gender.

 
And how about Tori Amos? I have seen a few regular posters post "Ugh! Enough female singers!"

Aside from the Pretenders, hardly any other women get played, although it has improved just slightly.

And women's music gets qualified as "pop" not rock, like women can't rock hard enough to qualify. 
MsJudi

MsJudi Avatar

Location: Houston, TX
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 4:44pm

 hippiechick wrote:
Some dude from Chi went viral with 100 best riffs, and the only woman artists featured were Heart.*

 
I don't want to try and weigh in on the rest of this topic, and haven't even read the majority of the posts. I only want to address this one issue that Deni brings up, and it's an important one to me. I'm about to stick my head into the lion's mouth, and I offer fair warning to all comers: rational and reasoned disagreements are always welcome with me; vitriol and insults will be summarily ignored.

I am thoroughly annoyed by how little women are represented in the music world and moreso, how the listening public react to them. Look at our own song comment boards...

On Heart's Crazy On You:

paralegal
(Phoenix, AZ)
Posted: Nov 14, 2003 - 08:54 < Reply >

God I HATE this Group!!! Two Broads wailing Crap!! :P :P

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Natalie Merchant's Motherland:

vandal
(arriving somewhere, but not here. . .)
Posted: Dec 05, 2011 - 19:56 < Reply >

 TerryS wrote:
Her voice is no more peculiar than many of the male songwriters and singers played here..........but, as has been pointed out ad nauseum, she has boobs. SFW?
Enjoy the song.
 

I can't - she sounds like a sheep singing into a fan and all I can focus on are her unnaturally large breasts. . .

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Norah Jones' Come Away With Me:

EssexTex
(Gros Islet)
Posted: Nov 26, 2007 - 08:50 < Reply >

Ain't she a purty little thang

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Cowboy Junkies, My Little Basquiat

thewiseking
(New York, New York)
Posted: Sep 17, 2008 - 09:41 < Reply >

this is one godawful talentless amateurish act.
they got away with it for a while with their ironic ennui shtick, mocking rock and roll.
now it is they who is mocked.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

On Indigo Girls, Heartache For Everyone

meloman
(Warsaw, Poland)
Posted: Jan 21, 2006 - 01:37 < Reply >

What a bunch of Norma Raes...kavetch, kavetch, kavetch!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This list could go on for literally pages, but you get the idea. It seems clear to me that while all of these songs and artists obviously have their fans here on RP and get great comments when their music is played, enough listeners hate them simply for their female voices. I wish I could find the one comment I saw someone make a couple of years ago that he just simply didn't like the female voice in rock and roll. Huh? I mean really, HUH?

There is a bias against female performers, and it is based- from all appearances- solely on gender.
hippiechick

hippiechick Avatar

Location: topsy turvy land
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 4:15pm

 Proclivities wrote:

It does seem like an odd distinction to make the camps for "girls only" to me as well, but the article seems to explain (part of) why the founders saw the need for such a camp.  Obviously, they did see a need, but it's odd that there are so many "girls-only" camps opening elsewhere.  There are rock & roll camps, which are not gender-specific; perhaps the overwhelming majority of campers at those camps are historically male.  The one large-group photo, in that linked site, shows about thirty campers - three of them appear to be girls.  Now, that's only one camp I found through a quick search (one which had photos), hardly definitive proof, but it's very possible, or even likely, that other camps are pretty similar - which would partially explain the desire for "girls-only" camps.
  I agree that it does perpetuate a dubious cycle, but I imagine if one were to talk to the people who founded these camps, they would probably hear other reasons as to why they think them necessary, or at least, popular.

 
If you listen to any rock/classic rock/alternative station, you will very rarely hear music by woman artists, and those are always the same handful. 

Some dude from Chi went viral with 100 best riffs, and the only woman artists featured were Heart.*

From my teaching experience I have found that when there are more boys than girls, they take over and the girls gets pushed aside. Boys and girls learn differently, and by having separate classes, the girls get their chance without having to compete with the boys, especially when the kind of boys that would play rock guitar are most likely highly energetic.

I personally think that separate classes in all subjects would benefit the students. 

*There were a couple groups, like St. Vincent, that had a woman in the group. 
Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 2:26pm

 mzpro5 wrote:
So rather than put young boys and girls together to teach that boys should not treat girls like second class citizens and give girls an opportunity to demonstrate they can interact with boys without being intimidated we separate them and perpetuate what has been going on. The cycle needs to be broken. Keeping kids gender separate in such an activity only perpetuates that cycle.

 
It does seem like an odd distinction to make the camps for "girls only" to me as well, but the article seems to explain (part of) why the founders saw the need for such a camp.  Obviously, they did see a need, but it's odd that there are so many "girls-only" camps opening elsewhere.  There are rock & roll camps, which are not gender-specific; perhaps the overwhelming majority of campers at those camps are historically male.  The one large-group photo, in that linked site, shows about thirty campers - three of them appear to be girls.  Now, that's only one camp I found through a quick search (one which had photos), hardly definitive proof, but it's very possible, or even likely, that other camps are pretty similar - which would partially explain the desire for "girls-only" camps.
  I agree that it does perpetuate a dubious cycle, but I imagine if one were to talk to the people who founded these camps, they would probably hear other reasons as to why they think them necessary, or at least, popular.


jadewahoo

jadewahoo Avatar

Location: Puerto Viejo, Costa Rica
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 12:33pm

 Isabeau wrote:
C'mon, seriously?  So you claim there are no judicial prejudices regarding child custody and Fathers? Suddenly the argument changes doesn't it?
We all must honestly admit there is gender discrimination for both sexes. No, separating genders does not necessarily cure the situation. Yet, empowering one gender's loss of voice or power in any unequal circumstance is not necessarily a victim role. Gender prejudice hurts men just as cruelly.
 
Nope... nobody here claiming what you are stating. I believe we just have a different perspective on how to go about rectifying the situation. On the one hand it is by isolation as a safe environment for self-expression, on the other it is to kick-start a more progressive modeling of behavior... for both sexes. It is a big world, and I am sure there is room for both approaches.
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 12:25pm

 mzpro5 wrote:


So rather than put young boys and girls together to teach that boys should not trat girls like second class citizens and give girls an opportunity to demonstrate they can interact with boys without being intimidated we separate them and perpetuate what has been going on. The cycle needs to be broken. Keeping kids gender separate in such an activity only perpetuates that cycle.

 
Now if that would happen, I'm in. Yes, desegregation does help in changing minds. 
mzpro5

mzpro5 Avatar

Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 12:21pm

 Isabeau wrote:

Hey, boys can be pretty cruel to girls in 'their' fields. Girls learning anything separately from men often releases them from a lot of doubt and second guessing.  Unfortunately, its a cultural truth that girls need and desire men's approval - when boys are around, young girls clam up, terrified of being labeled undesirable/unwanted.  Music is the balm of the Universe, but I've witnessed first-hand Rock Musician Misogyny and how ugly they can be in their regard for women. Many learn as they get older (don't we all?) but Music is not a saintly art above human frailty anymore than anything else. 
 



So rather than put young boys and girls together to teach that boys should not trat girls like second class citizens and give girls an opportunity to demonstrate they can interact with boys without being intimidated we separate them and perpetuate what has been going on.

The cycle needs to be broken. Keeping kids gender separate in such an activity only perpetuates that cycle.
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 12:05pm

 mzpro5 wrote:
 Isabeau wrote:
 
 

Whoa wait a minute, in no way am I saying that discrimination and inequality don't exist and as you say for both sexes.

But why use something like this to perpetuate differences rather than celebrating similarities. There are few human endeavors that lend themselves more to gender equality than creating and playing music.

 
Hey, boys can be pretty cruel to girls in 'their' fields. Girls learning anything separately from men often releases them from a lot of doubt and second guessing.  Unfortunately, its a cultural truth that girls need and desire men's approval - when boys are around, young girls clam up, terrified of being labeled undesirable/unwanted.  Music is the balm of the Universe, but I've witnessed first-hand Rock Musician Misogyny and how ugly they can be in their regard for women. Many learn as they get older (don't we all?) but Music is not a saintly art above human frailty anymore than anything else. 

mzpro5

mzpro5 Avatar

Location: Budda'spet, Hungry
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 11:56am

 Isabeau wrote:

 



Whoa wait a minute, in no way am I saying that discrimination and inequality don't exist and as you say for both sexes.



But why use something like this to perpetuate differences rather than celebrating similarities. There are few human endeavors that lend themselves more to gender equality than creating and playing music.


Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 11:45am

 jadewahoo wrote:


I'm glad the girls are having fun but this whole type of thing perpetuates a gender divide where none needs to exist. Why a Girls Rock Camp instead of a Kids Rock Camp made up of an equal number of girls and boys? For those wanting gender equality (of which I am one) programs like this make a point of separation. Unlike athletics neither gender has an innate advantage (meaning physical bodynstrength) when it comes to musical talent, playing and enjoyment.

And yes there are more male rock stars than female but that does not mean there is a dearth of female rock/pop stars.

In the end it is fun and good for the kids but the article's tone reinforcing gender inequality does no good.OK let the bullets fly.

I'm standing back-to-back with you on this.  Enough with this commercialization/profiteering of gender antagonism.
___________________________________________________
C'mon, seriously?  So you claim there are no judicial prejudices regarding child custody and Fathers? Suddenly the argument changes doesn't it?
We all must honestly admit there is gender discrimination for both sexes. No, separating genders does not necessarily cure the situation. Yet, empowering one gender's loss of voice or power in any unequal circumstance is not necessarily a victim role. Gender prejudice hurts men just as cruelly.
 

(former member)

(former member) Avatar

Location: hotel in Las Vegas
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 11:40am

 mzpro5 wrote:
I'm glad the girls are having fun but this whole type of thing perpetuates a gender divide where none needs to exist. Why a Girls Rock Camp instead of a Kids Rock Camp made up of an equal number of girls and boys? For those wanting gender equality (of which I am one) programs like this make a point of separation. Unlike athletics neither gender has an innate advantage (meaning physical bodynstrength) when it comes to musical talent, playing and enjoyment.

And yes there are more male rock stars than female but that does not mean there is a dearth of female rock/pop stars.

In the end it is fun and good for the kids but the article's tone reinforcing gender inequality does no good.

OK let the bullets fly.

 
You make a lot of valid points...  I cannot disagree with you...  however, I will stay on the fence on this issue...  I think the other position is defensible, too...  I am curious how women feel about this...
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 11:36am

 oldviolin wrote:

hey, wait a minute...

 
My dear friend and musician ex-husband used to call it 'finding a Sponsor' 
jadewahoo

jadewahoo Avatar

Location: Puerto Viejo, Costa Rica
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 11:31am

 mzpro5 wrote:
 romeotuma wrote:



Rocking Out, No Boys Allowed

by Robbie Brown
The New York Times
July 14, 2012

 

I'm glad the girls are having fun but this whole type of thing perpetuates a gender divide where none needs to exist. Why a Girls Rock Camp instead of a Kids Rock Camp made up of an equal number of girls and boys? For those wanting gender equality (of which I am one) programs like this make a point of separation. Unlike athletics neither gender has an innate advantage (meaning physical bodynstrength) when it comes to musical talent, playing and enjoyment.

And yes there are more male rock stars than female but that does not mean there is a dearth of female rock/pop stars.

In the end it is fun and good for the kids but the article's tone reinforcing gender inequality does no good.OK let the bullets fly.

I'm standing back-to-back with you on this.  Enough with this commercialization/profiteering of gender antagonism.


oldviolin

oldviolin Avatar

Location: esse quam videri
Gender: Male


Posted: Jul 14, 2012 - 11:29am

 jadewahoo wrote:

You know what you call a drummer without a girlfriend, right?
Homeless. 

 
hey, wait a minute...
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