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westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Apr 17, 2019 - 5:55pm



 katzendogs wrote:
Im about 1500 miles over my 1st oil change on MA's truck. 2017 Chevy Colorado. Milage is about 3500 now and it should have been done at 2 k. Thoughts?
 

Synthetic oil?  If it is top grade, perhaps it is not such a problem  But if you went for the traditional dino oil, well, who knows?   :-)

Add some more synthetic oil if it is low, drive for a day and then change it immediately.  Think about an engine flush.
katzendogs

katzendogs Avatar

Location: Pasadena ,Texas
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2019 - 5:35pm

Im about 1500 miles over my 1st oil change on MA's truck. 2017 Chevy Colorado. Milage is about 3500 now and it should have been done at 2 k. Thoughts?
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2019 - 2:42pm

westslope wrote:
Use fees for public amenities especially parks, outdoor activities.

Most people who can afford to drive to parks and other outdoor destinations can easily afford use fees.  A number of outdoor activities are largely pursued by folks of higher socio-economic status. Driving around the countryside in a well equipped 4WD truck or SUV is not something that most bona fide poor people do.

I see no public policy rationale for subsidizing the enjoyment of the better educated and the better off. But then America voters happily funnel US$30 B in annual subsidies to rich farmers and then strong arm foreign countries to take subsidized US agricultural exports so perhaps I am the one who is out of step.

Actually even with expensive use fees, many outdoor public amenities will still require annual tax payer financing to cover costs. The use fees will simply mean more resources to manage and monitor, and ideally less congestion and a far better quality experience.


Open access fishing often leads to stupid competitive behaviour and violence.  It also leads to righteous, trashy white anglers intimidating and bullying Native Americans and First Nations (Canadian term).   Ironically perhaps, the biggest single determinant of angling quality is the value of carbon emitting fuels consumed in order to get to the destination.  

So in some respectives, it is important to not worry about the materially comfortable.  Go ahead and destroy watersheds near urban centres or simply destroy the angling quality.   The materially comfortable can always drive 1,000 kilometres or buy or charter and fuel a big boat, or use a Jet Sled with its high fuel consumption and noise, or  hop on a plane or a helicopter.    Forget about the poor people, they are not going fly fishing for steelhead and salmon in remote parts of Alaska, BC or Patagonia.  

BTW Lazy8.  I have been reading and talking to people about Montana fly fishing for almost half a century now.  Never went. Why?  The congestion.   Most of the people I talked to about Montana fly fishing, I met in southern Chile, Argentina or remote parts of British Columbia.    That said, there is some excellent angling on private venues in Montana, in particular the Blackfoot managed Duck Lake and the ranch-owned spring creeks.  

Some background: I live in a tourist destination. That comes with some benefits and some drawbacks. On the plus side some of the most beautiful parts of the planet are within a day's drive. I live a mile from the river A River Runs Through It was filmed on*—I can walk there. I don't fish it because it's overfished, and the protocol for these areas is catch&release, which I find ethically repellent.

And no, I'm not sharing my fishing holes. Don't even ask.

Open-access fishing is self regulating. It gets too crowded and it's not fun and you find somewhere else. The use level sorts to the crowd-tolerance of the most crowd-tolerant people. The externality of this kind of use is the ecological damage done to the fishery; I've never seen this "stupid competitive behaviour and violence" you speak of.

The tribes manage their own hunting and fishing access in this part of the world. You access their fisheries (non-tribal members generally aren't allowed to hunt on the rez even if they live there) with their permission and via a tribal fishing permit. Those fisheries are generally pretty well-managed. Intimidating or bullying tribal members will not end well for you. Might work up in Cannadia, but on the rez it will get you used as a fence post.

Those paying big bucks to fish here aren't rubbing elbows at public fishing accesses, they're up in pristine wilderness areas hauled in on horseback or on private ranches. Anyone who can afford to travel to Chile or British Columbia to fish is having a secluded, beautiful, ecologically-sensitive vacation that I could never in a million years afford or justify. My style of fishing requires more patience than money. It's part of my compensation for putting up with two seasons of tourists.

My midmost lives way out in the bush in Alaska, and yes poor folks are fishing and hunting there—like they always have. If it means enough to you to do those things then you make the sacrifices required to live where you can do them.

I don't object to use fees to cover actual costs of operating a facility. I happily pay for a camping spot. But regulating access by price seems like a misuse of power. Where I live the Department of Fish, Wildlife & Parks (which manages state recreational areas) is funded almost entirely** by license and user fees. An annual State Land Use Permit costs $10. Not saying this model would solve problems in your neighborhood but it works for us.

And don't expect me to justify farm subsidies. I'm as outraged as you are.

*No, that isn't the Blackfoot. I grew up fishing the Blackfoot and know it well, but it's overfished now too and the filmmakers had their reasons for not using it. Which outraged the locals BTW—anybody could see that's not the Blackfoot! What kind of dishonest crap is this?—but I can forgive.

**FWP gets a cut of federal excise tax revenue, makes up about 1/4 of their budget. General Fund revenue amounts to just over 1% of the FWP budget and it's (I think) heavily earmarked for specific purposes.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2019 - 11:34am



 westslope wrote:
Use fees for public amenities especially parks, outdoor activities.

Most people who can afford to drive to parks and other outdoor destinations can easily afford use fees.  A number of outdoor activities are largely pursued by folks of higher socio-economic status. Driving around the countryside in a well equipped 4WD truck or SUV is not something that most bona fide poor people do.

I see no public policy rationale for subsidizing the enjoyment of the better educated and the better off. But then America voters happily funnel US$30 B in annual subsidies to rich farmers and then strong arm foreign countries to take subsidized US agricultural exports so perhaps I am the one who is out of step.

Actually even with expensive use fees, many outdoor public amenities will still require annual tax payer financing to cover costs. The use fees will simply mean more resources to manage and monitor, and ideally less congestion and a far better quality experience.


Open access fishing often leads to stupid competitive behaviour and violence.  It also leads to righteous, trashy white anglers intimidating and bullying Native Americans and First Nations (Canadian term).   Ironically perhaps, the biggest single determinant of angling quality is the value of carbon emitting fuels consumed in order to get to the destination.  

So in some respectives, it is important to not worry about the materially comfortable.  Go ahead and destroy watersheds near urban centres or simply destroy the angling quality.   The materially comfortable can always drive 1,000 kilometres or buy or charter and fuel a big boat, or use a Jet Sled with its high fuel consumption and noise, or  hop on a plane or a helicopter.    Forget about the poor people, they are not going fly fishing for steelhead and salmon in remote parts of Alaska, BC or Patagonia.  

BTW Lazy8.  I have been reading and talking to people about Montana fly fishing for almost half a century now.  Never went. Why?  The congestion.   Most of the people I talked to about Montana fly fishing, I met in southern Chile, Argentina or remote parts of British Columbia.    That said, there is some excellent angling on private venues in Montana, in particular the Blackfoot managed Duck Lake and the ranch-owned spring creeks.  
 

You've made several points here and I disagree with every one of them! 
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Apr 17, 2019 - 10:51am

Use fees for public amenities especially parks, outdoor activities.

Most people who can afford to drive to parks and other outdoor destinations can easily afford use fees.  A number of outdoor activities are largely pursued by folks of higher socio-economic status. Driving around the countryside in a well equipped 4WD truck or SUV is not something that most bona fide poor people do.

I see no public policy rationale for subsidizing the enjoyment of the better educated and the better off. But then America voters happily funnel US$30 B in annual subsidies to rich farmers and then strong arm foreign countries to take subsidized US agricultural exports so perhaps I am the one who is out of step.

Actually even with expensive use fees, many outdoor public amenities will still require annual tax payer financing to cover costs. The use fees will simply mean more resources to manage and monitor, and ideally less congestion and a far better quality experience.


Open access fishing often leads to stupid competitive behaviour and violence.  It also leads to righteous, trashy white anglers intimidating and bullying Native Americans and First Nations (Canadian term).   Ironically perhaps, the biggest single determinant of angling quality is the value of carbon emitting fuels consumed in order to get to the destination.  

So in some respectives, it is important to not worry about the materially comfortable.  Go ahead and destroy watersheds near urban centres or simply destroy the angling quality.   The materially comfortable can always drive 1,000 kilometres or buy or charter and fuel a big boat, or use a Jet Sled with its high fuel consumption and noise, or  hop on a plane or a helicopter.    Forget about the poor people, they are not going fly fishing for steelhead and salmon in remote parts of Alaska, BC or Patagonia.  

BTW Lazy8.  I have been reading and talking to people about Montana fly fishing for almost half a century now.  Never went. Why?  The congestion.   Most of the people I talked to about Montana fly fishing, I met in southern Chile, Argentina or remote parts of British Columbia.    That said, there is some excellent angling on private venues in Montana, in particular the Blackfoot managed Duck Lake and the ranch-owned spring creeks.  
cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2019 - 9:30am



 Lazy8 wrote:
cc_rider wrote:
I am all for getting out in nature. But FSMdamnit, show a little respect. Clean up your $hit. Sure alcohol is a factor, but it's not a license to leave a mess.

I don't know what the answer is. It would take an army of park rangers to patrol everywhere. User fees are one tool: our local state parks are $10/person/day, ouch. I think there are programs to get low-income kids out there too, maybe that's where you start. Get kids on board early...

Ten bucks A DAY?

This user fee is a tool for what, exactly? Seems more like a massive obstacle to getting people out and enjoying parks.
 
Well, the place does require maintenance and supervision, those are not free.  The lake is a popular fishing site, lots of fancy bass boats around town. I know it's very popular, I bet in the summer it's a job just to keep the restrooms clean/stocked. But yeah, I'd like to see discounts or vouchers for folks who can't swing the fee.

Plus, boat-wise, it's critically important to make sure boaters drain and clean their boats due to the zebra mussels.

They've added 5-6 well-appointed small Airstream trailers in permanent locations. So cute, but $225/night? Really?
c.

Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2019 - 9:29am



 kurtster wrote:

Try $15 a day for California State Parks and Beaches.  Annual is $195.
 
I think most NC State Parks have no fees (yet), other than the parks with large "lake recreation" areas.  Those ones are around $7.50 per car, per day, during the summer.  Most of those lakes are big fishing and water-recreation sites - lots of boats, jet-skis, etc.  All the State Parks probably have camping fees and some in the mountains have climbing fees.  As far as I know, ATVs and motorcycles are not allowed in any State Parks, highway-licensed "off-road"  vehicles (SUVs, pick-ups) are allowed on some beaches in the off-season or in specific areas.  Alcohol is prohibited in all State Parks.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2019 - 8:55am

 Lazy8 wrote:
cc_rider wrote:
I am all for getting out in nature. But FSMdamnit, show a little respect. Clean up your $hit. Sure alcohol is a factor, but it's not a license to leave a mess.

I don't know what the answer is. It would take an army of park rangers to patrol everywhere. User fees are one tool: our local state parks are $10/person/day, ouch. I think there are programs to get low-income kids out there too, maybe that's where you start. Get kids on board early...

Ten bucks A DAY?

This user fee is a tool for what, exactly? Seems more like a massive obstacle to getting people out and enjoying parks.

 
Try $15 a day for California State Parks and Beaches.  Annual is $195.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2019 - 8:52am

ScottFromWyoming wrote:
Same but different, down here the entire slate of USFS campgrounds is closed—locked—all winter. So locals can't use them in the off season even with the day use fee, and can't get into them in high season. 

Campgrounds makes sense. No water and keeping an outhouse usable takes some effort, not to mention access and towing stuck RVs out and rescuing hypothermic city dwellers in tents and $15 cloth sleeping bags.

Locals can at least day hike and sleep in their own beds, but I feel ya on the tourist thing. Curse of living in a place you don't need to flee on vacation.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2019 - 8:24am



 Lazy8 wrote:
This user fee is a tool for what, exactly? Seems more like a massive obstacle to getting people out and enjoying parks.
 

Same but different, down here the entire slate of USFS campgrounds is closed—locked—all winter. So locals can't use them in the off season even with the day use fee, and can't get into them in high season. 
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2019 - 8:18am

cc_rider wrote:
I am all for getting out in nature. But FSMdamnit, show a little respect. Clean up your $hit. Sure alcohol is a factor, but it's not a license to leave a mess.

I don't know what the answer is. It would take an army of park rangers to patrol everywhere. User fees are one tool: our local state parks are $10/person/day, ouch. I think there are programs to get low-income kids out there too, maybe that's where you start. Get kids on board early...

Ten bucks A DAY?

This user fee is a tool for what, exactly? Seems more like a massive obstacle to getting people out and enjoying parks.
cc_rider

cc_rider Avatar

Location: Bastrop
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 17, 2019 - 7:36am



 westslope wrote:
KurtfromLaQuinta,


 
Good discussion here. The real problem? People are a$$holes. Look at the havoc done to Joshua Tree recently. Freakin' Joshua Tree! Why not just go into Muir Woods with a chainsaw! A$$holes.

I am all for getting out in nature. But FSMdamnit, show a little respect. Clean up your $hit. Sure alcohol is a factor, but it's not a license to leave a mess.

I don't know what the answer is. It would take an army of park rangers to patrol everywhere. User fees are one tool: our local state parks are $10/person/day, ouch. I think there are programs to get low-income kids out there too, maybe that's where you start. Get kids on board early...
c.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Apr 14, 2019 - 10:56am

KurtfromLaQuinta,

That is the problem with 'open access' for the public in general, in particular automobile access to public lands.  If there are few users,  self-enforcing social conventions and norms usually keep folks behaving well.   

Alcohol is always a complicating factor.   Here in 4X4 accessible areas of the interior of British Columbia, I have to assume that when one finds massive, ugly, garbage-filled fire pits and fire-scorched elderly Ponderosa pines that the 4X4 partiers were mostly drunk.  

 It should come as no surprise that one of the biggest dangers posed by greenfield resource projects (mining, oil&gas, etc.) results from giving road access to the public.  The companies work hard to minimize their ecological footprint because that is what is expected in an Environmental Impact Study/Assessment (EIS/EIA) that is required by regulators.  Then special interest groups representing the quote unquote 'public interest' lobby hard to have full, unfettered access to the new road or roads poking back into the wilderness.    And the havoc begins......

It is too bad that 'freedom' in North America is tightly associated with open-access, Tragedy of the Commons -type outcomes and yet the ideologues persist.  It is too bad that open access traditions are celebrated by those who glorify the ethnic-cleansing history of USA nation building.

One solution for off-road areas would be for enthusiasts, e.g., 4X4 off-road clubs, to co-manage the area with public agencies (state and/or federal), charge use fees, take down names, drivers licenses, etc., and intensively manage the area fining and or/permanently expelling those who shun the rules.   This works like a charm for high-demand Atlantic salmon and sea-run charr recreational fisheries in Quebec.    In Quebec, locals and Aboriginals benefit from sport fishing as opposed to finding themselves in a constant zero-sum game with 'sporties'.  

It might not work so well for popular off-road areas as the use may not be sufficiently high to justify the costs of intensive management.    

Perhaps in that case, hard-core enthusiasts can establish close links with state and federal conservation officers and police reporting directly to authorities  through satellite phones or whatever it takes.  



KurtfromLaQuinta

KurtfromLaQuinta Avatar

Location: Really deep in the heart of South California
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 12, 2019 - 9:36am



 westslope wrote:
I could post pictures of jacked up Nissan Xterra's rock crawling and mud bogging but frankly, it is not my thing.   though I am grateful when the hard-core share their knowledge.  

Kurt:  My only concern is that 4 wheelers stick to the road/path and avoid driving all over the country side. 

I know that the serious folks are pretty good about this.  Others?  Not so much.  ATVs are worse.  They go all over the damn place and create all kinds of damage.  
 

Well I've been off- roading for over 45 years.
What you say has some validity. Off -roading is pretty much band in the area where I live now. It's funny... but you can get fined for driving on a vacant lot.
Back in the late 60's/ early 70's around here, pretty much everything was open. We had open desert where "squatters" in the 40’s and 50’s built little houses everywhere in the "sand dunes". Then they left them. We used to go “sand sledding” out in those areas. (Pull an old VW hood behind our 4 wheeler's with people on it) Cheap fun entertainment! There was a huge sand dune complex just outside the nearby city of Palm Desert. Where people from Los Angeles would come out on the weekend and would have fun. These sand dunes were even featured in the Time/ Life series of books one titled “The Deserts”. There was another really popular area just outside Palm Springs called Windy Point. One of my favorite areas, known as Indio Hills, which is just a short distance from my house.

All those areas were shutdown in the late 70’s. One of the reasoning’s behind it was for the “endangered” fringed toed lizard. All well and good… except within 5 years that area in Palm Desert was sold and developed into an “industrial/ office area”. A bad thing right? Well the developers just had to pay the local conservation concerns a fee to put in land across the valley for a “Preserve”. I guess the lizards could take a shuttle the 15 miles to their reservation. All those other areas the same thing happened. “Pay us the money for our cause! We’ll line our pockets for the cause! Thank you for your contribution for saving the desert!” Yep. No one was making money on those people having a little fun. Shut it down! Meanwhile the open areas that are left are becoming way too overcrowded.

Glamis is a very popular sand dune area to the east of us. The environmentalist shut down a decent sized chunk of that area. They wanted to protect a plant. That place is a zoo with way too many people packed into a smaller area. I don’t even go there anymore because of that. In Pismo Beach, 2/3 of the beach was shutdown back in the 80’s because of the Snowy Plover bird. In the summer that place has become a zoo also with too many people crammed into a small area.  To me this is the bigger problem. People need to “get out”. But when “getting out” is moving a city out to “out there”, you’re going to create more problems. Then the environmentalist will have more reasons to close it all down.

Your right… there will always be idiots out there. It usually involves drinking. I’ve seen them and always tried to tell them “For crying out loud! You’re going to ruin it for everybody else! Stop it!” The 4 Wheel Drive club I was in for years promoted the sensible use of off- roading. When you off –road, you don’t try to run over trees and bushes. Common sense tells you “Don’t hit that. You might break something!” The only time you can safely venture off a trail is in the sand. If there’s a bush or a tree… of course one needs to avoid it. Most times there’s a rock hidden in there too!

The sweeping Wilderness laws passed here in California caused a huge shutting down of vast swaths of land. My son, granddaughter and myself went on a short overnight camping trip last spring. We entered into the edge of the “Orocopia Wilderness Area”. This “Wilderness Area” was one of those recent “set aside areas”. A series of high-tension power lines runs through it. And we were 2.5 miles off of Interstate 10. We also had better cell phone reception than I get at my house. We drove up a sand wash. Had dinner and sleep in the beds of our trucks.

I’m all for protecting things like the Snowy Plover… and sure there are areas that need the “Wilderness Protection” from clowns who don’t care about anything but themselves. But when it’s taken too far… it’s not good for either side.


westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Apr 11, 2019 - 2:21pm

I could post pictures of jacked up Nissan Xterra's rock crawling and mud bogging but frankly, it is not my thing.   though I am grateful when the hard-core share their knowledge.  

Kurt:  My only concern is that 4 wheelers stick to the road/path and avoid driving all over the country side. 

I know that the serious folks are pretty good about this.  Others?  Not so much.  ATVs are worse.  They go all over the damn place and create all kinds of damage.  
KurtfromLaQuinta

KurtfromLaQuinta Avatar

Location: Really deep in the heart of South California
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 11, 2019 - 12:03pm



 


 haresfur wrote:


 

I don't have a dog in this fight but people seem to like them here.


 


 

When that's all you can get...

KurtfromLaQuinta

KurtfromLaQuinta Avatar

Location: Really deep in the heart of South California
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 11, 2019 - 12:01pm



 aflanigan wrote:


 KurtfromLaQuinta wrote:




I'm with you on those guys in their lifted trucks and Formula 1 tires on 20" wheels.
I dare those guys to take it beyond the pavement.

 

So you want to hang with the Pinzgauers, eh?
 
Definitely cool vehicles there. 
There's not many of those things around here.
And they're very top heavy units.

pigtail

pigtail Avatar

Location: Southern California
Gender: Female


Posted: Apr 11, 2019 - 9:19am



 miamizsun wrote:


nice!

but how difficult is it to roll downhill?

let's see him climb up that crack


{#Lol}



 

Anticlimactic,  I wanted to see the nose dive and flip over
aflanigan

aflanigan Avatar

Location: At Sea
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 11, 2019 - 7:39am



 KurtfromLaQuinta wrote:


Hence my license plate frame.
I "Jeep" my truck. I dare go places where most vehicles get hung up, stuck or roll it.



I did this in 2 Wheel Drive...

I'm with you on those guys in their lifted trucks and Formula 1 tires on 20" wheels.
I dare those guys to take it beyond the pavement.

 

So you want to hang with the Pinzgauers, eh?
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 11, 2019 - 5:30am

 haresfur wrote:


I don't have a dog in this fight but people seem to like them here.



 

nice!

but how difficult is it to roll downhill?

let's see him climb up that crack


{#Lol}


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