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how do you feel right now?
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When I need a Laugh I ...
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Remembering the Good Old Days
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Business as Usual
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HALF A WORLD
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Sonos
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And the good news is....
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Musky Mythology
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China
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Artificial Intelligence
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Index »
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Why not Anarchy?
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Page: Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 ... 21, 22, 23 Next |
kurtster
Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 4, 2011 - 4:44pm |
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Umberdog wrote:I think lawyers (or whatever you want to call them) are more a problem than a solution. As soon as you have lawyers you have government... and vice versa.
yea verily ... . A.T.F.A.B. any thing for a buck
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cc_rider
Location: Bastrop Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 4, 2011 - 4:41pm |
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Umberdog wrote:I think lawyers (or whatever you want to call them) are more a problem than a solution. As soon as you have lawyers you have government... and vice versa.
In the abstract, in our complex world, I tend to agree. But boil it down to something very simple, like an argument between neighbors over, say, a fruit tree that hangs over the other's property. They argue about who owns what fruit, but one of the neighbors has a terrible stutter, so it's very difficult for the poor guy to get his point across. So he hires someone to listen to his problem 'offline' when his stuttering is not exacerbated by stress, and then the 'speaker' argues for him. Of course that's a gross oversimplification (I'm very good at those), but the idea is, sometimes you need somebody to speak for you. Now that our legal system has gotten too complex for anyone to really understand, it's even more important for someone who is familiar with the system (such as it is) to speak for you. Lawyers are one of the many necessary evils of a civilized society, at least one that's as large as ours.
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Umberdog
Location: In my body. Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 4, 2011 - 4:17pm |
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I think lawyers (or whatever you want to call them) are more a problem than a solution. As soon as you have lawyers you have government... and vice versa.
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miamizsun
Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP) Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 4, 2011 - 3:42pm |
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aflanigan wrote: As I understand this framework, DROs are hired arbiters by two or more people, who have voluntarily entered into a contract, to settle possible (future) disputes. (I think DROs hire security or collection agents to perform this task if all else fails.) So Stan defaults, Molyneux says DROs are well within their right to remove property by force, per Bob and Stan's endorsement, which could be a easy as towing a vehicle or as difficult as eviction. If you read on (or any of his other stuff) he points toward the preferred method of non-violent incentive - economic ostracization. Stan also realizes that he becomes the aggressor by taking (or refusing to return) someone's property that he didn't pay for. This whole scenario also assumes that there is no appeal which he says is unlikely. Regards
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aflanigan
Location: At Sea Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 4, 2011 - 8:40am |
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miamizsun wrote: As I understand it, DROs are not armed these would be primarily made up of analytical types, so no they are not armed. (it is possible I missed something and I'm sure you'll point it out)
I was going by what I found from Stefan Molyneaux: "Thus the DRO would be entirely within its right to go and remove property from Stan - by force if necessary - to pay for his side of the dispute." found here THE STATELESS SOCIETY: AN EXAMINATION OF ALTERNATIVES
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miamizsun
Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP) Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 4, 2011 - 8:03am |
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aflanigan wrote:
Appears to be a euphemism for "government entity".
EDIT: apparently Stefan Molyneaux has written extensively about this DRO concept in an attempt to show them to be "tenable". He envisions them being armed; so I guess it would be comparable to getting the mafia to enforce your agreements.
As I understand it, DROs are not armed these would be primarily made up of analytical types, so no they are not armed. (it is possible I missed something and I'm sure you'll point it out) Try reading Practical Anarchy for yourself, this way we could have or potentially have some helpful dialog about ideas on organizing society in a non-violent fashion. a take from the book "Here is as good a place as any to introduce you to the concept of Dispute Resolution Organizations (DROs). This concept cannot answer every conceivable question you might have about dispute resolutions within a stateless society, but rather is a framework for understanding the methodology of dispute resolution - just as the scientific method cannot answer every possible question about the natural world, but rather points towards a methodology that allows those questions to be answered in a rational manner.
DROs are companies that specialize in insuring contracts between individuals, and resolving any disputes that might arise. For instance, if I borrow $1,000 from you, I may have to pay $10 to a DRO to insure my loan. If I fail to pay you back your money, the DRO will pay you instead. Obviously, as my credit rating improves, the cost of insuring my contracts will decline. The DRO theory can be as complex as any other free market theory - and a lot of intellectual effort has gone into resolving how particular transactions might occur, such as multimillion dollar international contracts. Credible DRO theories have also been advanced that solve problems ranging from abortion to child abuse to murder to pollution. For more on DRO theory and practice, please see "The Stateless Society: An Examination of Alternatives."
and this BUT - WON'T THE MOST SUCCESSFUL DRO JUST ARM ITSELF, VIOLENTLY ELIMINATE ALL THE OTHER DROS, AND EMERGE AS A NEW GOVERNMENT?
First of all, if the potential emergence of a new government at some point in the future is of great concern, then surely the elimination of existing governments in the present is a worthy goal. If we have cancer, we go through chemotherapy to eliminate it in the present, even though we may get cancer again at some point in the future.
Secondly, unlike governments, DROs are not violent institutions. DROs will be primarily populated by white-collar workers: accountants, mediators, executives and so on. DROs are about as likely to become paramilitary organizations as your average accounting firm is likely to become an elite squad of ninja death warriors. Given the current existence of governments that possess nuclear weapons, I for one am willing to take that risk. Thirdly, if a DRO tries to turn itself into a government, the other DROs will certainly act to prevent it. DROs would simply refuse to cooperate with any DRO that refused to submit to "arms inspections." Furthermore, DRO customers would also not take very kindly to their DRO becoming an armed institution - and their rates would certainly skyrocket, because their DRO would have to provide its regular services, as well as pay for all those black helicopters and RPGs. Any DRO that was paying for goods or services that its customers did not want - i.e. an army - would very quickly go out of business, because it would not be competitive in terms of rates. For more on this, please see "War, Profit and the State." Regards
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kurtster
Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender:
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Feb 3, 2011 - 9:59am |
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aflanigan wrote:
If I hear one more crack about asphalt, I'm going to steamroll the lot o' ya.
That sounds like something Stalin would say!
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aflanigan
Location: At Sea Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 3, 2011 - 9:57am |
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oldviolin wrote:Hindu ain't a language, ya goof! It's a dadelion growing out of a crack in the asphalt... If I hear one more crack about asphalt, I'm going to steamroll the lot o' ya.
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Feb 3, 2011 - 9:16am |
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aflanigan wrote:Yikes!!! Anarchists under the bed!!! ...and in the closet!
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aflanigan
Location: At Sea Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 3, 2011 - 9:13am |
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sirdroseph wrote:And my username is....... Yikes!!! Anarchists under the bed!!!
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sirdroseph
Location: Not here, I tell you wat Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 3, 2011 - 9:12am |
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Umberdog wrote: P.S. I just Googled 'DRO' and now I think I know what you've been smoking. *chuckles* Just joking.
And my username is.......
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aflanigan
Location: At Sea Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 3, 2011 - 9:10am |
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Umberdog wrote: P.S. I just Googled 'DRO' and now I think I know what you've been smoking. *chuckles* Just joking.
Appears to be a euphemism for "government entity". EDIT: apparently Stefan Molyneaux has written extensively about this DRO concept in an attempt to show them to be "tenable". He envisions them being armed; so I guess it would be comparable to getting the mafia to enforce your agreements.
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aflanigan
Location: At Sea Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 3, 2011 - 9:08am |
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miamizsun wrote: Well at least you didn't ask the plane/parachute question. First in an anarchic society, there is no absence of rules, regs or laws. That's your hallucination. There is however an absence of government violence. I think the current common laws and statutes follow the riparian or appropriation methods, I see no need to change these. However, there are large corporatist water companies that have, with government help of course, allowed to set up in an area and basically suck it dry. Boone Pickens has greased a bunch of politicians and acquired a massive amount of water rights and right of ways. When the group of people you've given authority to are for sale, expect them to be bought and sold.
In an anarchic organization these things are contractual and handled by DROs. In other words, if you buy property, in the contract are water rights, access rights, etc.
Regards
I think what you are describing is libertarianism, not anarchy. Having courts to settle contractual disputes, for example, constitutes legal authority in my opinion; where laws and lawful authority (including, for example, the authority to review and enforce legally binding contracts) exist, you can't by definition call it anarchy.
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aflanigan
Location: At Sea Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 3, 2011 - 9:02am |
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kurtster wrote:Uh, actually it worked out pretty good for me. I did the old switcheroo when fa wasn't looking and gave him the defective knock off instead that I got burned on by someone else. I had also modified the TME knockoff by installing an exploding dye bomb like they use for bank robbers and a little C-4 I picked up at the A/N surplus store just for an occasion such as this. My fa is gonna be really surprised when he turns it on. Damn Chinese bootleg stuff, you just never know ... fa will now be mad at the Chinese, if he survives ... One again free will determines the outcome, I didn't tell fa to turn on the doll, he did it all by himself. Word will get out on the streets that TME's can kill. My real TME will then be safe. In fact I can hang it on my front door as a deterent to robbery. Once the urban legends regarding exploding TME's is established, one can then use booby traps to intervene against tresspassers. Just make sure that there is always a TME nearby the corpse as booby traps are still illegal or are they ? Pretty clever, dude!
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kurtster
Location: where fear is not a virtue Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 7:39pm |
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aflanigan wrote:
If you don't mind, honorable kurtster, allow me the liberty (if you'll pardon the pun) of using you as an example to look at the issue we're discussing.
kurtster: That's my Elmo doll, give it back, fellow anarchist! fellow anarchist: The heck with you, it's mine now. I can do what I want, I'm an anarchist! kurtster: As am I. Allow me to offer you an incentive to return my doll since I have no recourse to legal action, and since threatening you would disrupt the social order. fa: what are you offering me? kurtster: I have several things of value you may like. fa: The only thing I'm interested in is this Tickle-Me-Elmo doll. kurtster: Fine, if you will return my Elmo doll to me, I will give you what you want as an incentive in order to preserve the spirit of volunteerism that pervades our society. (fa returns the Elmo doll to kurtster, who then gives it back) fa: Enjoy the rest of your day, fellow anarchist! kurtster: Uh, wait a minute, this didn't turn out the way I'd hoped . . .
Uh, actually it worked out pretty good for me. I did the old switcheroo when fa wasn't looking and gave him the defective knock off instead that I got burned on by someone else. I had also modified the TME knockoff by installing an exploding dye bomb like they use for bank robbers and a little C-4 I picked up at the A/N surplus store just for an occasion such as this. My fa is gonna be really surprised when he turns it on. Damn Chinese bootleg stuff, you just never know ... fa will now be mad at the Chinese, if he survives ... One again free will determines the outcome, I didn't tell fa to turn on the doll, he did it all by himself. Word will get out on the streets that TME's can kill. My real TME will then be safe. In fact I can hang it on my front door as a deterent to robbery. Once the urban legends regarding exploding TME's is established, one can then use booby traps to intervene against tresspassers. Just make sure that there is always a TME nearby the corpse as booby traps are still illegal or are they ?
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Umberdog
Location: In my body. Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 6:45pm |
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"The sound is fading away. It is of five sounds. Freedom. The sound is fading away. It is of five sounds."
Oh wait, wrong kind of Indian. NM.
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oldviolin
Location: esse quam videri Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 6:27pm |
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hippie
Location: In the studio Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 6:19pm |
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oldviolin wrote: Heck, I love cream corn. I was speaking Manbirdian. It's sort of like explaining the theory of relativity to Manbird.
I don't care if you were speaking Hindu...that stuff blows.
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hippie
Location: In the studio Gender:
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Posted:
Feb 2, 2011 - 6:16pm |
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buzz wrote: outlaw tofu and you get my vote
For cooking/eating...hell yes. For patching your drywall it can still be used.
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