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Proclivities

Proclivities Avatar

Location: Paris of the Piedmont
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2015 - 10:37am

 sirdroseph wrote:


I am an agnostic so I don't even believe in pants.{#Lol}

 
Yeah, I heard you had converted to culottes.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2015 - 10:33am

 kurtster wrote:

What is vital about pastry, flowers, photography and pizza ?  You wish to treat them the same as a government service, or a utility or some other form of monopoly ?  Whose logic is flawed now ?  That is the whole point of tolerance, or at least a fundamental part of tolerance.

 

 
Yeah I figured you'd refuse to see the point. 
 

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2015 - 10:23am

 islander wrote:

I'm an atheist*, mostly because I don't want religion in my pants.

*-What is it called when I believe your belief in your God(tm)?

 

I am an agnostic so I don't even believe in pants.{#Lol}
islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2015 - 10:07am

 sirdroseph wrote:
If everyone would just keep their religion in their pants, we wouldn't have this issue.  Separation of church and state means just that, same goes for Muslims and Christians.

 
I'm an atheist*, mostly because I don't want religion in my pants.

*-What is it called when I believe your belief in your God(tm)?
islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2015 - 10:06am

 kurtster wrote:

So how do we fight discrimination ?  With even more discrimination.  We make laws that allow discrimination against one group to end discrimination against another group.  WTF ?  Once again, in the case of discriminating against religion to counter its discrimination of another group, we see the distance between church and state shrink, not increase.
 
The law was intended to let the religious people openly discriminate against other people who didn't share their views. That is what started all this crap. They wanted to be able to openly discriminate and wanted a law to support it.  There is your WTF moment and the thing you should be considering as a giant f*ing problem.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2015 - 9:37am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

Separating the pizza place from the others is okay with me because although I think they're morons for falling into the trap, it was still a trap.
 
But the rest of it? You (and everyone whose arguments you cite or align with) are making a very common argument that is the cause of all of the left's head-shaking: "So instead of being tolerant and respectful for a different point of view, they sued.  Why couldn't they just say be that way, we'll take our business elsewhere.  There are plenty of other places who will gladly serve us." If you don't understand the flawed logic here, that a reasonably united majority (in this case (fundamentalist) Christians) can easily overwhelm a minority group's ability to access vital services, then I assume you're okay with whatever other racial segregation the majority cares to concoct.
 
I'm not sure why the size of group A (LGBT) being roughly equal to the size of group B (Muslims) is relevant. Both groups are likely to suffer from discrimination by that same reasonably united majority. You seem to be arguing that this is not the case and that we should be discriminating against Muslims more than we are. I would concede that perhaps as a nation, we are somewhat more hesitant to discriminate based solely on what might be racial grounds.  

 
What is vital about pastry, flowers, photography and pizza ?  You wish to treat them the same as a government service, or a utility or some other form of monopoly ?  Whose logic is flawed now ?  That is the whole point of tolerance, or at least a fundamental part of tolerance.

 
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Not here, I tell you wat
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2015 - 9:13am

If everyone would just keep their religion in their pants, we wouldn't have this issue.  Separation of church and state means just that, same goes for Muslims and Christians.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2015 - 9:08am

 kurtster wrote:

We are talking about many things.  Let me remind you that the only reason I even bothered to get involved in this discussion was because of a call for a boycott over this and pointing out the hypocritical stance of a few who called for the boycott.

You want to talk about numbers ?  Down below you posted a chart showing that Muslims account for .6% of the US population.  I went looking for sources to confirm that and found nothing really conclusive since 2011.  So for the sake of the discussion, I'll agree with the number.  Based upon projections in the USA Today article the percentage will increase by 2030 to equal the percentage of those in the USA who are LGBT.   The percentage of how many are LGBT will not change because it is strictly a percentage of births.  We know that it is nature, not nurture that is responsible for one's sexual tendencies.

But back to the numbers, both are tiny, yet look how much power the tiny LGBT community has.  I would also say that the Muslim community has a lot of power as well.  Its all in how and where you direct it.  Both are effective users of their power.  The difference between the two in these terms are that Muslim population is growing exponentially while the LGBT population is static.

So how do we fight discrimination ?  With even more discrimination.  We make laws that allow discrimination against one group to end discrimination against another group.  WTF ?  Once again, in the case of discriminating against religion to counter its discrimination of another group, we see the distance between church and state shrink, not increase.

Discrimination is a one way street.  Tolerance is a two way street.  At least in my mind.  This is how I started out my involvement in this discussion.  I don't know how the request was made or turned down, but where was the grace and acceptance of the party who was turned down ?  Wasn't grace and acceptance expected on the part of the baker ?  (to ignore their beliefs).  Or did the gay party come in the door stating bake us this cake or we will close down your business and ruin you to the point of taking away your house (as in the case of the florist)  I don't know, I wasn't there.  Did the business owners yell and scream, throwing them out of their collective store fronts wishing death, ill fortune and eternal damnation onto the prospective clients ?  I doubt it, I'm sure it would be well documented.

So instead of being tolerant and respectful for a different point of view, they sued.  Why couldn't they just say be that way, we'll take our business elsewhere.  There are plenty of other places who will gladly serve us.  

Lastly what is different with the pizza shop in Indiana from the other three cases that resulted in lawsuits is that these businesses where sued for actions.  The owners of the pizza shop were pummeled for expressing thoughts in a highly unlikely hypothetical situation presented via ambush journalism.  So now we have to worry about the thought police, just as much (or more ?) than the action police.  The thought police behaved like a lynch mob.  So much for tolerance, grace and acceptance of differing views and also the ability to have an honest conversation about anything meaningful anymore.  Farther down the rabbit hole of the zero tolerance state we go ...
 
Separating the pizza place from the others is okay with me because although I think they're morons for falling into the trap, it was still a trap.
 
But the rest of it? You (and everyone whose arguments you cite or align with) are making a very common argument that is the cause of all of the left's head-shaking: "So instead of being tolerant and respectful for a different point of view, they sued.  Why couldn't they just say be that way, we'll take our business elsewhere.  There are plenty of other places who will gladly serve us." If you don't understand the flawed logic here, that a reasonably united majority (in this case (fundamentalist) Christians) can easily overwhelm a minority group's ability to access vital services, then I assume you're okay with whatever other racial segregation the majority cares to concoct.
 
I'm not sure why the size of group A (LGBT) being roughly equal to the size of group B (Muslims) is relevant. Both groups are likely to suffer from discrimination by that same reasonably united majority. You seem to be arguing that this is not the case and that we should be discriminating against Muslims more than we are. I would concede that perhaps as a nation, we are somewhat more hesitant to discriminate based solely on what might be racial grounds.  
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2015 - 8:31am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:

It's about 1/50th as big a problem for LGBT as the Christian problem is. So if the discrimination by Muslims is a Very Big Problem, imagine how big a problem the discrimination by Christians is.
 
/another point you'll ignore 

 
We are talking about many things.  Let me remind you that the only reason I even bothered to get involved in this discussion was because of a call for a boycott over this and pointing out the hypocritical stance of a few who called for the boycott.

You want to talk about numbers ?  Down below you posted a chart showing that Muslims account for .6% of the US population.  I went looking for sources to confirm that and found nothing really conclusive since 2011.  So for the sake of the discussion, I'll agree with the number.  Based upon projections in the USA Today article the percentage will increase by 2030 to equal the percentage of those in the USA who are LGBT.   The percentage of how many are LGBT will not change because it is strictly a percentage of births.  We know that it is nature, not nurture that is responsible for one's sexual tendencies.

But back to the numbers, both are tiny, yet look how much power the tiny LGBT community has.  I would also say that the Muslim community has a lot of power as well.  Its all in how and where you direct it.  Both are effective users of their power.  The difference between the two in these terms are that Muslim population is growing exponentially while the LGBT population is static.

So how do we fight discrimination ?  With even more discrimination.  We make laws that allow discrimination against one group to end discrimination against another group.  WTF ?  Once again, in the case of discriminating against religion to counter its discrimination of another group, we see the distance between church and state shrink, not increase.

Discrimination is a one way street.  Tolerance is a two way street.  At least in my mind.  This is how I started out my involvement in this discussion.  I don't know how the request was made or turned down, but where was the grace and acceptance of the party who was turned down ?  Wasn't grace and acceptance expected on the part of the baker ?  (to ignore their beliefs).  Or did the gay party come in the door stating bake us this cake or we will close down your business and ruin you to the point of taking away your house (as in the case of the florist)  I don't know, I wasn't there.  Did the business owners yell and scream, throwing them out of their collective store fronts wishing death, ill fortune and eternal damnation onto the prospective clients ?  I doubt it, I'm sure it would be well documented.  In the video regarding the Muslim bakeries, they all politely refused and recommended other people who would better serve their needs.  No one threatened to behead anyone.  No one was harmed.  Nor have any lawsuits been thrown at them either.

So instead of being tolerant and respectful for a different point of view, they sued.  Why couldn't they just say be that way, we'll take our business elsewhere.  There are plenty of other places who will gladly serve us.  

Lastly what is different with the pizza shop in Indiana from the other three cases that resulted in lawsuits is that these businesses where sued for actions.  The owners of the pizza shop were pummeled for expressing thoughts in a highly unlikely hypothetical situation presented via ambush journalism.  So now we have to worry about the thought police, just as much (or more ?) than the action police.  The thought police behaved like a lynch mob.  So much for tolerance, grace and acceptance of differing views and also the ability to have an honest conversation about anything meaningful anymore.  Farther down the rabbit hole of the zero tolerance state we go ...

Prodigal_SOB

Prodigal_SOB Avatar

Location: Back Home Again in Indiana
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2015 - 7:36am

 haresfur wrote:

Indiana Shut Down Its Rural Planned Parenthood Clinics And Got An HIV Outbreak

Indiana Gov. Mike Pence (R) has warned that the HIV outbreak amounts to an epidemic. Last week, he broke with previous policy to create a temporary needle-exchange program to stem the tide. His office did not immediately respond to a request for comment. 

 

   I think the question I would most like to ask my governor (if he were the sort that responded to requests for comment) is if needle-exchanges are a good way to curb this epidemic then why should why should we get rid of them once the number of cases returns to an acceptable level and just what is that acceptable level?
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3283.1 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 6, 2015 - 6:57am

 haresfur wrote: 
seems the outbreak started in mid december and is primarily drug related

free needles, condoms and testing will probably yield some stabilization

education/information/rehab is what they need

hopefully that will motivate caution and responsibility



Most of those infected had shared needles while injecting a liquefied form of the painkiller Opana, a prescription drug that’s more potent per milligram than Oxycontin, officials said. A small number of the HIV cases were linked to unprotected sex, which is the chief way the virus is spread, Walthall said.

State Health Commissioner Jerome Adams said in a statement that “prescription drug abuse is at the heart of this outbreak.” Disease specialists are interviewing those infected about their needle-sharing habits and sexual partners and working to get those people tested for HIV.

“We have the full resources of our infectious disease team and our partners on the ground making sure we reduce this risk and its spread as quickly as possible,” Walthall said.

HIV cases have been confirmed in Clark, Jackson, Perry, Scott and Washington counties. The Scott County town of Austin had a large number of the cases, although it’s unclear why, Walthall said. About five of those infected are prostitutes and just under 10 others are inmates in local jails or prisons, she said. Those infected range in age from 20 to 56, but most are in their mid-30s.




haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 5, 2015 - 9:04pm

Indiana Shut Down Its Rural Planned Parenthood Clinics And Got An HIV Outbreak


islander

islander Avatar

Location: West coast somewhere
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 5, 2015 - 8:10pm

 kurtster wrote:

I didn't click on your links.

I will say that I presented the video to you twice that clearly showed the man being refused on more than one occasion.  You refused to denounce or even comment on the finding.  Yet you have no problem denouncing and mocking Christians as well as the pizza shop owners.  I conclude what I conclude based upon your actions.

Even after investigating the video, you still will not comment on how it is wrong for Muslim's to also discriminate against gay people.

Or show me where you have  ... or say it directly, that you do not approve.
 

 

I think the general sentiment here is that it's wrong for anyone to discriminate against people for their sexual preferences.  What you seem to forget is that the uproar is because some nutcases wrote a law that was designed specifically to let them discriminate against people. That the uproar got some language added that protects gay people doesn't change the fact that it was the bigoted Christians that were behind it in the first place.  When the bigoted Muslims start enacting legislation here, you can expect the same level of uproar. 

 
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 5, 2015 - 9:23am

 kurtster wrote:
It would be so easy to just say that it is just as  wrong for Muslims to discriminate against the gay community as it is for Christians, but he won't.  And a lot of other people will not either.  That is a problem.  A very big problem.
 
It's about 1/50th as big a problem for LGBT as the Christian problem is. So if the discrimination by Muslims is a Very Big Problem, imagine how big a problem the discrimination by Christians is.
 
/another point you'll ignore 
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 5, 2015 - 8:58am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
He did, in fact, comment on the video: EXTREME-RIGHT AMBUSH JOURNALISM!!!!11froth!!1foam!!
 
That's mostly a tongue-in-cheek post referring to an earlier post in this thread (and actually the second time I linked to that particular article).

My general initial responses to these "religious freedom restoration" laws have been highlighted here (very recently) with links as well, but as they say, you can lead an ass to water... {#Wink}
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 5, 2015 - 8:09am

 ScottFromWyoming wrote:
 kurtster wrote:

I didn't click on your links.

I will say that I presented the video to you twice that clearly showed the man being refused on more than one occasion.  You refused to denounce or even comment on the finding. 

He did, in fact, comment on the video: EXTREME-RIGHT AMBUSH JOURNALISM!!!!11froth!!1foam!!

 
What you left out of my remark ...

  kurtster wrote:
Even after investigating the video, you still will not comment on how it is wrong for Muslim's to also discriminate against gay people.

  
If just posting a link qualifies as an answer, then I guess that you are correct, but not right.  Posting someone else's comments makes them your own ?  So then when referring to remarks made in the link as his own or similar to his own, he denies ever having said anything of the kind, which is true, yet false at the same time.  Its the game he plays.  Its his process.  And you are buying into it and endorsing his game by citing his link as his reply.

It would be so easy to just say that it is just as  wrong for Muslims to discriminate against the gay community as it is for Christians, but he won't.  And a lot of other people will not either.  That is a problem.  A very big problem.

I'll give this a rest for the rest of the day out of respect to those who find this a day of joy and redemption.

 
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 4, 2015 - 9:48pm

 kurtster wrote:

Thank you for getting my point.

Going into a Muslim bakery asking for a gay wedding cake is not much different from going into an obviously Christian pizzeria and asking them if they would cater a gay wedding.
 
No, your point was that the reason it's not been a tactic of the LGBT community to go into a Muslim bakery and test them is because it's all just left-wing anti-Christian propaganda shenanigans.
 
If the activists who are trying to get some rights in this country can't target Christians unless they also devote the same amount of effort to protest Muslims, Baha'i, Atheists et al for whatever level of discrimination they might get from those groups, then... victory is yours. You win. Feel free to Jim Crow the LGBT community right on out of town, because that's an impossible standard.

The only logical move for a discriminated-against group is to focus on changing the behavior of the largest demographic. 
 
I really don't understand your problem here, Kurt. I don't get the impression you're a devout "Bible believing" Christian. Really, if those pizza people knew your unrepentant ways they'd maybe refuse to sell you pizza, too. I would think you'd appreciate knowing that when you go order a MeatzzzaPizzza with extra cheese because that was some really good shit... that they don't judge, they just make pie.
ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 4, 2015 - 9:47pm

 kurtster wrote:

I didn't click on your links.

I will say that I presented the video to you twice that clearly showed the man being refused on more than one occasion.  You refused to denounce or even comment on the finding. 
 
He did, in fact, comment on the video: EXTREME-RIGHT AMBUSH JOURNALISM!!!!11froth!!1foam!!
R_P

R_P Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 4, 2015 - 9:27pm

 kurtster wrote:
I didn't click on your links.

I will say that I presented the video to you twice that clearly showed the man being refused on more than one occasion.  You refused to denounce or even comment on the finding.  Yet you have no problem denouncing and mocking Christians as well as the pizza shop owners.  I conclude what I conclude based upon your actions.

Even after investigating the video, you still will not comment on how it is wrong for Muslim's to also discriminate against gay people.

Or show me where you have  ... or say it directly, that you do not approve.
 
Let me just stoop to your level of argument for one post: since I haven't seen you deny it anywhere (and I can't be bothered to look), I'm just going to assume you're a life-long member of the KKK. {#Mrgreen}
Hey, I'm just connecting the dots in your username and tagline.
kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Apr 4, 2015 - 9:21pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
 kurtster wrote:
You approve of the Muslims' denial of services to gays and I do not. (...)

All that's apparently left for you (again) is outright mendacity and slander. Please show me where I approve, Pinocchio. {#Liar}

 
I didn't click on your links.

I will say that I presented the video to you twice that clearly showed the man being refused on more than one occasion.  You refused to denounce or even comment on the finding.  Yet you have no problem denouncing and mocking Christians as well as the pizza shop owners.  I conclude what I conclude based upon your actions.

Even after investigating the video, you still will not comment on how it is wrong for Muslim's to also discriminate against gay people.

Or show me where you have  ... or say it directly, that you do not approve.
 
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