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Government Shutdown
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(former member)
Gender:
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 6:15pm |
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beamends wrote: Well, yes - it would be nice if everyone played fair, but sadly human nature gets in the way. I suppose the trouble is everyone's definition of 'fair' is different. I like to think I treat all as equal, but I suspect others would not agree. That's not to say the dream should be abandoned, I just don't see any great progress being made in the near future. That's why libertarianism isn't a viable option. It's a great idea if you're self-sufficient and kind. If you're dependent or unkind, then it's a poor choice to not have a government around to help or to keep you from taking advantage of others.
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beamends
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 6:03pm |
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oldslabsides wrote: yes.
I believe in my soul that people should do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because it is the law. You may say I'm a dreamer...
Well, yes - it would be nice if everyone played fair, but sadly human nature gets in the way. I suppose the trouble is everyone's definition of 'fair' is different. I like to think I treat all as equal, but I suspect others would not agree. That's not to say the dream should be abandoned, I just don't see any great progress being made in the near future.
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 5:53pm |
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beamends wrote: When you say 'hate the government', is that hate it because there is one at all, or because you hate the general politics set up as is?
yes. I believe in my soul that people should do the right thing because it is the right thing, not because it is the law. You may say I'm a dreamer...
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peter_james_bond
Location: West Of The Burg Gender:
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 5:51pm |
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islander wrote: That doesn't sound like the vast bastion of liberal thought that is RP....
I'm seriously fine if people want to join a union. I'm just saying that not much of this makes sense to me. I know there was a time and place for unions and that's fine. I think there is even still a role for people who want to work that way. But a lot of the "protections" offered are really symbolic only and really serve to actually hurt the employees in many cases. With the large and mobile middle class brought to us by unions, people have a lot more options. This lessens the need for the unions. If you're not being treated fairly by your employer, you can leave. Your employer knows this and will treat you at least as well as he thinks you'll be treated at his biggest competitor if he thinks you bring more value to your job than he pays you in your paycheck. Yes corporations try to maximize their profits, but don't the employees try to maximize their wages as well? The smartest of both of those groups will find a way to work together for best effect and split the difference. If they don't do it well, there will be some upstart who will enter the market and do it better.
If you're 25 years old and don't have a mortgage or kids, then sure it's easy to leave. But what if you are 40 years old, married with a house and kids? Many people in America are terrified of losing their jobs, because it's very difficult to get another one. People put up with a lot of garbage when they live in fear. Meanwhile corporations are making record profits and paying very little in taxes.
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beamends
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 5:51pm |
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oldslabsides wrote: Maybe you haven't picked up on the fullness of my radicalism. Government - in my humble opinion - is something to be hated at best. I'm in the (apparently rather tiny) camp that thinks we need improved people, not improved government.
When you say 'hate the government', is that hate it because there is one at all, or because you hate the general politics set up as is?
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 5:37pm |
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beamends wrote: Hmmm - that is a bit weird, but then I find the idea of the kids doing an oath every day (or at least they did in New York sate when 'Er Indoors lived there a few years back) very strange too.
Maybe you haven't picked up on the fullness of my radicalism. Government - in my humble opinion - is something to be hated at best. I'm in the (apparently rather tiny) camp that thinks we need improved people, not improved government.
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beamends
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 5:32pm |
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oldslabsides wrote: and there's the rub.
Hmmm - that is a bit weird, but then I find the idea of the kids doing an oath every day (or at least they did in New York sate when 'Er Indoors lived there a few years back) very strange too.
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beamends
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 5:22pm |
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hobiejoe wrote:And, of course, it ameliorates some of the longevity pressure on the pension pot Absolutely - avoiding sitting in my own mess slowly losing my marbles in front of day-time TV is a very high priority as that is a really scary prospect!
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 5:20pm |
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islander wrote: That doesn't sound like the vast bastion of liberal thought that is RP....
I'm seriously fine if people want to join a union. I'm just saying that not much of this makes sense to me. I know there was a time and place for unions and that's fine. I think there is even still a role for people who want to work that way. But a lot of the "protections" offered are really symbolic only and really serve to actually hurt the employees in many cases. With the large and mobile middle class brought to us by unions, people have a lot more options. This lessens the need for the unions. If you're not being treated fairly by your employer, you can leave. Your employer knows this and will treat you at least as well as he thinks you'll be treated at his biggest competitor if he thinks you bring more value to your job than he pays you in your paycheck. Yes corporations try to maximize their profits, but don't the employees try to maximize their wages as well? The smartest of both of those groups will find a way to work together for best effect and split the difference. If they don't do it well, there will be some upstart who will enter the market and do it better. you know, for a filthy rich effete snob, you're pretty smart.
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islander
Location: West coast somewhere Gender:
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 5:16pm |
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Proclivities wrote: Thank you for your reality-based input. It seems a great many people here desire to blame the teachers or the unions for all of the ills in this country. Yes, horrible examples can be found everywhere and there is much lacking in the educational systems of this country. I wonder how many of these pundits came out of five-or-more years of higher education, $70,000.00 in debt, and want to be told that they're greedy parasites because they desire to get into a teachers' union in order to earn a steady, living wage. How many of them want to teach public school in Detroit, Memphis, or Newark? Sometimes it seems more like resentment: "Well, I've never had a union looking out for me, so no one else should either". Sorry, I guess I'm just venting and generalizing too.
That doesn't sound like the vast bastion of liberal thought that is RP.... I'm seriously fine if people want to join a union. I'm just saying that not much of this makes sense to me. I know there was a time and place for unions and that's fine. I think there is even still a role for people who want to work that way. But a lot of the "protections" offered are really symbolic only and really serve to actually hurt the employees in many cases. With the large and mobile middle class brought to us by unions, people have a lot more options. This lessens the need for the unions. If you're not being treated fairly by your employer, you can leave. Your employer knows this and will treat you at least as well as he thinks you'll be treated at his biggest competitor if he thinks you bring more value to your job than he pays you in your paycheck. Yes corporations try to maximize their profits, but don't the employees try to maximize their wages as well? The smartest of both of those groups will find a way to work together for best effect and split the difference. If they don't do it well, there will be some upstart who will enter the market and do it better.
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peter_james_bond
Location: West Of The Burg Gender:
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 4:42pm |
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Proclivities wrote: Thank you for your reality-based input. It seems a great many people here desire to blame the teachers or the unions for all of the ills in this country. Yes, horrible examples can be found everywhere and there is much lacking in the educational systems of this country. I wonder how many of these pundits came out of five-or-more years of higher education, $70,000.00 in debt, and want to be told that they're greedy parasites because they desire to get into a teachers' union in order to earn a steady, living wage. How many of them want to teach public school in Detroit, Memphis, or Newark? Sometimes it seems more like resentment: "Well, I've never had a union looking out for me, so no one else should either". Sorry, I guess I'm just venting and generalizing too.
Well said, whether you were venting or not.
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Proclivities
Location: Paris of the Piedmont Gender:
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 4:09pm |
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duchamp wrote: Yes, there is. ..and a morality clause; a teacher's oath to support the government and to model and teach good citizenship; a code of ethics; observations on and on. I can only speak for the state of Florida. Many if not most of the discussions here on this subject are inaccurate and misleading.....ad nauseum.
Teachers are identified here as well and given, support et al. In some cases their contracts are terminated or not renewed. Lifetime tenure for public school is no longer in my state. It is for five years at a time.
Some horrible example can usually be found for most any thing...... teachers included.
Thank you for your reality-based input. It seems a great many people here desire to blame the teachers or the unions for all of the ills in this country. Yes, horrible examples can be found everywhere and there is much lacking in the educational system s of this country. I wonder how many of these pundits came out of five-or-more years of higher education, $70,000.00 in debt, and want to be told that they're greedy parasites because they desire to get into a teachers' union in order to earn a steady, living wage. How many of them want to teach public school in Detroit, Memphis, or Newark? Sometimes it seems more like resentment: "Well, I've never had a union looking out for me, so no one else should either". Sorry, I guess I'm just venting and generalizing too.
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 3:50pm |
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duchamp wrote: ain't it though. Sometimes that conflicts with the oath to teach ''what is factual and true as to your specialty''.
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duchamp
Location: Florida Panhandle Gender:
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 3:47pm |
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oldslabsides wrote: and there's the rub.
ain't it though. Sometimes that conflicts with the oath to teach ''what is factual and true as to your specialty''.
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Red_Dragon
Location: Dumbf*ckistan
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 3:44pm |
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duchamp wrote: Yes, there is. ..and a morality clause; a teacher's oath to support the government and to model and teach good citizenship; a code of ethics; observations on and on. I can only speak for the state of Florida. Many if not most of the discussions here on this subject are inaccurate and misleading.....ad nauseum.
Teachers are identified here as well and given, support et al. In some cases their contracts are terminated or not renewed. Lifetime tenure for public school is no longer in my state. It is for five years at a time.
Some horrible example can usually be found for most any thing...... teachers included.
..
and there's the rub.
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duchamp
Location: Florida Panhandle Gender:
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 3:42pm |
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beamends wrote: Serious question - is there no professional standards body for teachers over there? We have a set up similar to the General Medical Council for doctors, now 'independent', formerly part of the Dept. of Education, and Ofsted for the schools (their inspections identify weak teachers so they can be offered support, or in the worst cases, re-training).
Yes, there is. ..and a morality clause; a teacher's oath to support the government and to model and teach good citizenship; a code of ethics; observations on and on. I can only speak for the state of Florida. Many if not most of the discussions here on this subject are inaccurate and misleading.....ad nauseum. Teachers are identified here as well and given, support et al. In some cases their contracts are terminated or not renewed. Lifetime tenure for public school is no longer in my state. It is for five years at a time. Some horrible example can usually be found for most any thing...... teachers included. ..
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hobiejoe
Location: Still in the tunnel, looking for the light. Gender:
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 3:07pm |
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beamends wrote:Tobacco smuggling into the UK - it's our only growth industry, and with the government adding 80p to a packet record sales are predicted. Also, there's none of that pesky tax to pay And, of course, it ameliorates some of the longevity pressure on the pension pot
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beamends
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 2:24pm |
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Lazy8 wrote: arighter2 wrote:The money that was expected to be realized through investments in the market failed to materialize, yet GM is contractually obligated to it's workers. For the moment, anyway.
That's not all of it. The retirees lived a lot longer and their health insurance cost a lot more than GM projected when it made the investments. If anybody has an investment that appreciates as fast as healthcare costs rise I need to hear about it! Tobacco smuggling into the UK - it's our only growth industry, and with the government adding 80p to a packet record sales are predicted. Also, there's none of that pesky tax to pay
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cc_rider
Location: Bastrop Gender:
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 1:56pm |
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Lazy8 wrote: arighter2 wrote:The money that was expected to be realized through investments in the market failed to materialize, yet GM is contractually obligated to it's workers. For the moment, anyway.
That's not all of it. The retirees lived a lot longer and their health insurance cost a lot more than GM projected when it made the investments. If anybody has a LEGAL investment that appreciates as fast as healthcare costs rise I need to hear about it! I'm considering investing in hookers and blow.
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Lazy8
Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana Gender:
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Posted:
Apr 15, 2011 - 1:49pm |
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arighter2 wrote:The money that was expected to be realized through investments in the market failed to materialize, yet GM is contractually obligated to it's workers. For the moment, anyway.
That's not all of it. The retirees lived a lot longer and their health insurance cost a lot more than GM projected when it made the investments. If anybody has an investment that appreciates as fast as healthcare costs rise I need to hear about it!
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