Location: Half inch above the K/T boundary Gender:
Posted:
Oct 9, 2013 - 11:54am
sirdroseph wrote:
True dat. Personally I think it is too late and there is nothing under our present political and economic system that can be done at this point which makes the petty bickering on the hill even more grotesque or just entertaining in a Nero or Caligula sort of way. The Republicans are using some very valid concerns to throw temper tantrums and make their perceived mortal enemies life miserable all the while literally bringing down the country when in reality the Republicans are not really proposing any true changes to correct our present iceberg course. What is even more frustrating is that their childish antics are doing nothing but further distracting the American people from these valid concerns. What a cluster.
Gee, maybe we (US gov't) are "too big to fail" as some banks are referred. I can hear Nero now.
It is all a matter of relativity and perspective. The day will indeed come when we default and the economy collapses, it is a matter of when, not if. There are many people over several generations who think long term and know this is an inevitability and literally spend their entire lives preparing for the collapse. Of course if we were to default this go round, it would hasten the time line to mere months as opposed to decades so I do understand your point and am in no way supportive of defaulting. I just don't want anyone to have the false belief that our present society and even entire civilization is sustainable at the rate of expenditure vs. economic growth not to mention dwindling resources to support human populations, it is clearly not.
Sustainable applies to most problems we face as humans on earth. Problems in many arenas are coming and we may not like much (an understatement) the self-correcting actions that follow "tipping point" events.
True dat. Personally I think it is too late and there is nothing under our present political and economic system that can be done at this point which makes the petty bickering on the hill even more grotesque or just entertaining in a Nero or Caligula sort of way. The Republicans are using some very valid concerns to throw temper tantrums and make their perceived mortal enemies life miserable all the while literally bringing down the country when in reality the Republicans are not really proposing any true changes to correct our present iceberg course. What is even more frustrating is that their childish antics are doing nothing but further distracting the American people from these valid concerns. What a cluster.
Location: Half inch above the K/T boundary Gender:
Posted:
Oct 9, 2013 - 11:20am
sirdroseph wrote:
It is all a matter of relativity and perspective. The day will indeed come when we default and the economy collapses, it is a matter of when, not if. There are many people over several generations who think long term and know this is an inevitability and literally spend their entire lives preparing for the collapse. Of course if we were to default this go round, it would hasten the time line to mere months as opposed to decades so I do understand your point and am in no way supportive of defaulting. I just don't want anyone to have the false belief that our present society and even entire civilization is sustainable at the rate of expenditure vs. economic growth not to mention dwindling resources to support human populations, it is clearly not.
Sustainable applies to most problems we face as humans on earth. Problems in many arenas are coming and we may not like much (an understatement) the self-correcting actions that follow "tipping point" events.
.... I am not convinced that default is a horrible thing.
Yes, there a few people...a very few (relative to the population that actually thinks about this) who believe as you do. I prefer to defer my opinion to such organizations as the World Bank, The EU, Wall Street, and many, many professional financial folk who have said that failure to raise the "debt ceiling" would be various degrees of catastrophic. Add the default to a government that is not nearly fully staffed to deal with it...well, relax Kurt.
It is all a matter of relativity and perspective. The day will indeed come when we default and the economy collapses, it is a matter of when, not if. There are many people over several generations who think long term and know this is an inevitability and literally spend their entire lives preparing for the collapse. Of course if we were to default this go round, it would hasten the time line to mere months as opposed to decades so I do understand your point and am in no way supportive of defaulting. I just don't want anyone to have the false belief that our present society and even entire civilization is sustainable at the rate of expenditure vs. economic growth not to mention dwindling resources to support human populations, it is clearly not.
Location: Half inch above the K/T boundary Gender:
Posted:
Oct 9, 2013 - 11:03am
kurtster wrote:
.... I am not convinced that default is a horrible thing.
Yes, there a few people...a very few (relative to the population that actually thinks about this) who believe as you do. I prefer to defer my opinion to such organizations as the World Bank, The EU, Wall Street, and many, many professional financial folk who have said that failure to raise the "debt ceiling" would be various degrees of catastrophic. Add the default to a government that is not nearly fully staffed to deal with it...well, relax Kurt.
Location: Half inch above the K/T boundary Gender:
Posted:
Oct 9, 2013 - 10:36am
sirdroseph wrote:
And this has to do with Gary Johnson's concern with our unsustainable debt in which way? I think that it is condescending to assume that Mr. Johnson does not understand this concept. Just because the debt ceiling is different than the deficit does not mean that we have the deficit under control and everything is sustainable on our present course, unless you happen to think it is.
Mr. Johnson is just as disgusted with the faux battle just as much as anyone else, but does not want to lose sight that the Democrats policy is unsustainable and dangerous just because the Republicans are unreasonably risking everything for their own petulant and petty reasons.
I didn't say GJ doesn't understand the difference. I addressed the many posters here and on other media who conflate the two.
I didn't read your link, just the quote you posted. I am capable of independent thinking.
I was against TARP and for letting the house burn down in 2008 and have stated so since before, during and after.
We are going to default eventually. It's impossible, I repeat impossible to avoid. I'll say the same thing I did about the crisis in 2008, let it happen. Let's get it over with now and find out our future, now. Let's stop all the speculation and fear mongering and get down to it.
It could be the best thing that ever happens to us.
To quote FDR ... we have nothing to fear but fear itself.
I have a pretty good idea of what lies ahead. I am not afraid.
And while we are in the area of keeping things straight, let's talk about what default actually is, shall we ?
The US gov defaulting on its interest payments on its debt would be a choice made by the POTUS. It is not automatic. Again, it is a choice that is made. There is enough money on hand to make the interest payments and prevent default. Money comes in constantly to the Treasury. Its all about managing cash flow and keeping the balls in the air.
I am not convinced that default is a horrible thing. We've been lied to about the sequestration, the shutdown and its reasonable to assume the same about default / debt ceiling considering who is the source of all the fear mongering regarding these three and related financial circumstances.
Obama is already letting the coffins of our fallen pile up to rot in hangars at Dover. The money to pay death benefits was assured in the special bill passed immediately before the shutdown and verified before passing by Hagel, again before passing the Armed Forces funding. Yet our CIC, Obama sees fit to inflict more pain by denying already authorized and paid for death benefits to the families of our fallen, who have made the ultimate sacrafice.
The stench from these rotting corpses on the tarmac at Dover begins in the White House, not Congress.
1. A default wouldn’t really be that bad. We haven’t heard this very much yet, but I expect it will start getting a stern workout this week. It was a heavy talking point back in 2011. I remember reading, back in the summer, how Republicans had decided that they weren’t going to fight too much over a possible government shutdown, as they knew it would make them unpopular, and they were going to save their powder for a debt-limit battle. Of course, that was then. They obviously changed strategies and decided to fight on both, because when it comes to fighting with Obama they’re just lab monkeys with cocaine, and because Ted Cruz made them. But I remember thinking, How in God’s green acres did they settle on that strategy? I was aghast
While a shutdown is terrible, it’s not in the same solar system of disaster as a default. But the substance meant nothing at all to them. What mattered was that a shutdown is comparatively easy for the public to grasp, while the debt-limit topic is confusing. So the idea that they might be jeopardizing the national and world economies didn’t mean a thing to them during their summer strategy sessions. The debt fight provided the better opportunity for them to confuse the public and disguise their game of Russian roulette over settled law (Obamacare), and it polled better. The Republicans’ insouciant stance on the substance of the thing goes back to 2011. Journalist Robert Draper reported an amusing-horrifying episode in his book on the 2010 class, Do Not Ask What Good We Do. The party leadership brought in Republican economists to tell them how awful a default would be. The government would be able to pay only about half its bills, federal prisons would be shut down, interest rates would shoot through the roof. They were largely unmoved, Draper wrote. The same thing is happening now. They just don’t believe the doomsayers. It’s liberal propaganda, just like all that “hooey” that gets talked about the polar ice cap melting. So you’re going to start hearing this idiocy again.
Will the readers please understand that the the "national debt" and the "debt ceiling" are two distinct and different issues. This Kabuki theatre we see in DC now is misguided beyond belief. Working from one three month manufactured crisis to the next keeps the tea party types happy, but these idiots in the hi-jacking of gov't have prevented us from dealing with the very problems against which the complain. Sickening.
And while we are in the area of keeping things straight, let's talk about what default actually is, shall we ?
The US gov defaulting on its interest payments on its debt would be a choice made by the POTUS. It is not automatic. Again, it is a choice that is made. There is enough money on hand to make the interest payments and prevent default. Money comes in constantly to the Treasury. Its all about managing cash flow and keeping the balls in the air.
I am not convinced that default is a horrible thing. We've been lied to about the sequestration, the shutdown and its reasonable to assume the same about default / debt ceiling considering who is the source of all the fear mongering regarding these three and related financial circumstances.
Obama is already letting the coffins of our fallen pile up to rot in hangars at Dover. The money to pay death benefits was assured in the special bill passed immediately before the shutdown and verified before passing by Hagel, again before passing the Armed Forces funding. Yet our CIC, Obama sees fit to inflict more pain by denying already authorized and paid for death benefits to the families of our fallen, who have made the ultimate sacrafice.
The stench from these rotting corpses on the tarmac at Dover begins in the White House, not Congress.
Will the readers please understand that the the "national debt" and the "debt ceiling" are two distinct and different issues. This Kabuki theatre we see in DC now is misguided beyond belief. Working from one three month manufactured crisis to the next keeps the tea party types happy, but these idiots in the hi-jacking of gov't have prevented us from dealing with the very problems against which the complain. Sickening.
And this has to do with Gary Johnson's concern with our unsustainable debt in which way? I think that it is condescending to assume that Mr. Johnson does not understand this concept. Just because the debt ceiling is different than the deficit does not mean that we have the deficit under control and everything is sustainable on our present course, unless you happen to think it is.
Mr. Johnson is just as disgusted with the faux battle just as much as anyone else, but does not want to lose sight that the Democrats policy is unsustainable and dangerous just because the Republicans are unreasonably risking everything for their own petulant and petty reasons.
Location: Half inch above the K/T boundary Gender:
Posted:
Oct 9, 2013 - 7:34am
sirdroseph wrote:
Got a nice email from Gary Johnson today and this sums it up nicely, thought I would post it:
Friends,
I often speak about the nation’s “unsustainable debt”. ..
Will the readers please understand that the the "national debt" and the "debt ceiling" are two distinct and different issues. This Kabuki theatre we see in DC now is misguided beyond belief. Working from one three month manufactured crisis to the next keeps the tea party types happy, but these idiots in the hi-jacking of gov't have prevented us from dealing with the very problems against which the complain. Sickening.
Got a nice email from Gary Johnson today and this sums it up nicely, thought I would post it:
Friends,
I often speak about the nation’s “unsustainable debt”. That isn’t just a phrase; it’s a reality that the politicians in Washington simply refuse to face.
If we needed proof, the nonpartisan Congressional Budget Office this week released a report that described the growing national debt in precisely those terms. CBO said, “President Obama and lawmakers have been cutting the wrong kind of federal spending as they try to avoid the unsustainable buildup of debt that is projected in the coming decades.”
While CBO puts it a bit more politely, what they really said is that Obama and Congress are nibbling around the edges with temporary sequestrations and “cuts” in programs while refusing to do anything about the real causes of a debt that is on the verge of hitting $17 Trillion. Those real causes, of course, are Medicare and other “nondiscretionary” expenditures that are literally consuming the private economy.
So what are the President and Congress doing? They are taking to the airwaves for “made for TV” political posturing about raising the debt ceiling and playing chicken with threats to shut the government down at the end of the month. Nowhere in all this drama are any real efforts to reduce the size of the government — and therefore its cost...or any mention of the entitlements that are the true drivers of that “unsustainable” debt.
Instead, we are getting the same old song: We aren’t going to touch Medicare or Social Security, and we aren’t really going to cut defense spending, but we HAVE to get the budget and deficits under control. Friends, it can’t be done! You know it, I know it, and the American people know it.
We have to call them out. Republicans and Democrats alike. We have to say, “Quit playing games with our financial future. Quit pretending you are doing something when you aren’t. And take a break from the Fox News and MSNBC appearances and get to work.
Calling the politicians out is up to us. It is up to the Our America Initiative to be a powerful voice — and it is up to liberty-minded supporters such as you to make that voice heard. Your contribution at OurAmericaInitiative.com today makes it possible to reach more and more people via the Internet and the media, and mobilize those Americans to put the heat on Washington, DC.
In less than two weeks, Congress and the President will make some kind of deal to avoid another budget “crisis”. Of course, that deal — whatever it is — will actually do nothing about the real crisis. It will just put the hard work off to another day, and our financial security will just keep disappearing.
We can’t let them get by with another back room deal that risks our economic freedom. Go to OurAmericaInitiative.com and help us call them out.
I'll respectfully reply by asking why is China investing in them ? I will respectfully submit that having a strong navy is the best military asset any country can have. International commerce moves primarily by sea. In order to defend international commerce a strong navy is required.
That is the lesson of history. It still applies in the 21st Century.
Not a thread about China.
Again original post: Republicans want to cut transportation in cities and give the money to the unaccountable Pentagon? Congress moves more spending to an already bloated military and you associate it with business commerce? But anything Obama does is for gross selfish power only?
In November 2009, the CBO reported that between 2003 and 2008 The Military had lost 900 Billion in failed or incomplete Nation Building in the Middle East.The Pentagon cannot account for 900 BILLION. More than the Bush/Paulson T.A.R.P. bailout and more than the Obama Stimulus. Retired generals are courted to become 'consultants' (Lobbyists) for the largest weapons contractors like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, General Dynamics, Northrup Grumman Corporation, et al to lobby Congress and 'sell' them Weapons that Congress or the Pentagon doesn't even want.
Guess who is more apt to push for purchasing obsolete weapons and old planes? Most Republicans with Military bases in their jurisdictions.
We already do. We spend more money on the military than any other nation - by a long shot. We have a fleet of ELEVEN giant aircraft carriers; the rest of the world's navies combined don't have that many - and almost all of them are supposed "allies." We could cut our military by 80% and still have enough to defend ourselves from.....?
I'll respectfully reply by asking why is China investing in them ? I will respectfully submit that having a strong navy is the best military asset any country can have. International commerce moves primarily by sea. In order to defend international commerce a strong navy is required.
That is the lesson of history. It still applies in the 21st Century.
We already do. We spend more money on the military than any other nation - by a long shot. We have a fleet of ELEVEN giant aircraft carriers; the rest of the world's navies combined don't have that many - and almost all of them are supposed "allies." We could cut our military by 80% and still have enough to defend ourselves from.....?
I can hear Nero now.
