What's interesting is that the Trump tribalists naturally try and project and say that there is an equal Biden tribalism at play. I for one don't see that because I guess my mind is still open as to who I would vote for come the general election. I don't see myself voting Republican (even though I am a registered Republican) because I don't see anyone coming from that side that didn't support Trump and/or his continued election lies. That's a deal-breaker for me. On the Democrat side I would look to support Biden or anyone else that would emerge from the primary if that unlikely scenario would come to pass. The bottom line is I would be happy to support someone other than Biden if given a better alternative. But if it shakes out Biden vs Trump (as everyone assumes) I will again support Biden as the alternative is unpalatable.
Do I think Biden is a great president?... "No"...
Agreed. Genitalia Grabber. Sexual Assault conviction. Porn star payoff. Inject Bleach. Just 11, 780 more votes. Capitol Insurrection that resulted in 5 deaths. Massive liar and grifter. I prefer aged wisdom over toddler whining.
Whether he effectively articulated a platform or not, he did have one - cut taxes (though the impact of individual tax cuts were mixed), cut regulations, cut immigration, cut alliances, cut ties with china/bring back us mfg (biden hasnt altered, and perhaps became more adversarial),...so lots of cuts...and these were more or less in-line with what most of the GOP wanted, ergo why he had gotten so much GOP support.
Given the events/behavior after the 2020 elections...why he continues to get so much support is beyond me...other than tribalism.
Obviously two completely different candidates, but arguably its the same reason why democrats support someone as inept as Biden.
So, a platform is retroactively defined by actions? Kind of like building a house with no architectural plans to see what you get and at the end say: "Yup... that's exactly what I wanted?" Seems a bit like the tail wagging the dog but Ok it is what it is.
Tribalism at it's exteme. Somehow people are convinced that Trump is the answer... we all saw with our own two eyes that he isn't. His presidency was an unqualified disaster and his actions to hold on to that presidency are beyond anything we have even witnessed. And some people want four more years of that? I guess in their minds he didn't f*ck up America enough in those first 4 years... they need give him another 4 to really finish the job he started.
What's interesting is that the Trump tribalists naturally try and project and say that there is an equal Biden tribalism at play. I for one don't see that because I guess my mind is still open as to who I would vote for come the general election. I don't see myself voting Republican (even though I am a registered Republican) because I don't see anyone coming from that side that didn't support Trump and/or his continued election lies. That's a deal-breaker for me. On the Democrat side I would look to support Biden or anyone else that would emerge from the primary if that unlikely scenario would come to pass. The bottom line is I would be happy to support someone other than Biden if given a better alternative. But if it shakes out Biden vs Trump (as everyone assumes) I will again support Biden as the alternative is unpalatable.
Do I think Biden is a great president?... "No"... do I think Trump is worse?... unequivocally "Yes".
Trump is dumb. Thereâs no hiding that fact and he reinforces it almost daily in his words and actions. The real question is⦠is he dangerous and that clearly is a âYesâ. Heâs upped the level of distrust and discord of peopleâs view of the government and their view of others. We see that he is not a unifying force by any means. Rather, he sows and thrives on creating and spreading lies and chaos. When has this ever been a âpresidentialâ quality?
Iâve lost patience with Trump supporters that are willfully ignorant to what he has done but I especially take issue with those that know exactly what he has done and the damage that he has caused and seemingly want more chaos and damage done to this country. They want more of this because⦠like their leader⦠they never admit the mistake and want to double-down on it. They have effectively stopped thinking for themselves and have subjugated their identity to this âforceâ. The force that has come to represent the big âf*ck youâ to the non-initiated and the government establishment. They want Trump as president not because of anything he can accomplish, they want him because of the sh*t he can stir up and the visceral reaction he elicits from the left. Doesnât seem any more complicated that that from where I sit.
Iâve come to realize that I donât share the same vision of the world I would like to live in vs most die hard Trump supporters. I wish I could say that I am against Trumpâs platform but since he never articulates one I would have to assume that, if he did, I would be at odds with it. The bottom line is that the term âfinding common groundâ for me with core Trump supports just isnât even feasible. Battle lines are drawn. So be it.
Whether he effectively articulated a platform or not, he did have one - cut taxes (though the impact of individual tax cuts were mixed), cut regulations, cut immigration, cut alliances, cut ties with china/bring back us mfg (biden hasnt altered, and perhaps became more adversarial),...so lots of cuts...and these were more or less in-line with what most of the GOP wanted, ergo why he had gotten so much GOP support.
Given the events/behavior after the 2020 elections...why he continues to get so much support is beyond me...other than tribalism.
Obviously two completely different candidates, but arguably its the same reason why democrats support someone as inept as Biden.
@rgio: the Democrats are committed to Biden. Presidential elections are largely determined years ahead of time by big money committing to one or two candidates. It's shockingly expensive to win a presidential election: according to Open Secrets, Dems and Repubs combined spent $6.6 billion on the 2020 presidential election. I can't imagine the Democratic party believes it has a better chance of holding on to the White House by backing a dark horse candidate against a sitting president.
I completely agree, but it is reckless to not have a plan B for that much money in case something changes, specifically with his health. If Joe is able, there is little doubt he's going to run... but...
I think the Dems should plan for the "what if", much the way the Republicans are starting to smell blood in the water with Trump. I think Biden is a lock against Trump...but not so much against a younger, smarter option.
The amount of money being spent demands alternatives to all scenarios. Just in case.
We shall see if Biden is defeated in the 2024 general election whether he will publicly declare the election to be fraudulent on the night (wee hours of next day) of the election and continually thereafter, call state election officials to inveigh upon them to find votes that should have gone to him, call for citizens to come to DC to âprotestâ that fraudulent election and when it resulted in a riot at the Capitol insist that these were patriots.
I am pretty sure that would never happen.
Would not⦠and unlike Trump supporters⦠if Biden (hypothetically) were to pull any of those crazy moves I would be one of the first to turn my back on him. My support of an individual (unlike others) does actually have limits. Those would (and should) all be deal-breakers.
yeah, he did. He sure did have a lot to say about lot's of people that seemed to have helped to steal the last three elections.
Of course he is nothing more than a partisan hack as far as you and most everyone else here is concerned.
From what I've read in the papers, Durham's reputation is badly damaged. He got one lawyer to admit to doctoring a FISA application but failed at just about everything else.
What Durham has to do with Biden is beyond me.
@rgio: the Democrats are committed to Biden. Presidential elections are largely determined years ahead of time by big money committing to one or two candidates. It's shockingly expensive to win a presidential election: according to Open Secrets, Dems and Repubs combined spent $6.6 billion on the 2020 presidential election. I can't imagine the Democratic party believes it has a better chance of holding on to the White House by backing a dark horse candidate against a sitting president.
As for moderate Republicans appearing and knocking out Trump or DeSantis—do moderate Republican politicians exist anymore? Unfortunately a lot of committed Republicans are still thinking and acting along the lines of "government is bad" and "Washington is corrupt" even though their darling made the government worse and set new records for corruption.
As I see it, we're stuck with Biden vs. Trump or possibly DeSantis in 2024. Still hoping Trump gets tried and convicted before election day.
4 years, two failed prosecutions, one guilty plea and a long winded report with a fantastical section about all the stuff he was unable to actually prove.
doorknob checking in ... been reading all the recent remarks regarding Trump and I could just as easily say all the same things about Biden and his supporters.
We shall see if Biden is defeated in the 2024 general election whether he will publicly declare the election to be fraudulent on the night (wee hours of next day) of the election and continually thereafter, call state election officials to inveigh upon them to find votes that should have gone to him, call for citizens to come to DC to “protest” that fraudulent election and when it resulted in a riot at the Capitol insist that these were patriots. I am pretty sure that would never happen.
Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth
Posted:
Jun 3, 2023 - 11:09am
kurtster wrote:
doorknob checking in ...
been reading all the recent remarks regarding Trump and I could just as easily say all the same things about Biden and his supporters.
We shall see if Biden is defeated in the 2024 general election whether he will publicly declare the election to be fraudulent on the night (wee hours of next day) of the election and continually thereafter, call state election officials to inveigh upon them to find votes that should have gone to him, call for citizens to come to DC to âprotestâ that fraudulent election and when it resulted in a riot at the Capitol insist that these were patriots.
Trump is dumb. Thereâs no hiding that fact and he reinforces it almost daily in his words and actions. The real question is⦠is he dangerous and that clearly is a âYesâ. Heâs upped the level of distrust and discord of peopleâs view of the government and their view of others. We see that he is not a unifying force by any means. Rather, he sows and thrives on creating and spreading lies and chaos. When has this ever been a âpresidentialâ quality?
Iâve lost patience with Trump supporters that are willfully ignorant to what he has done but I especially take issue with those that know exactly what he has done and the damage that he has caused and seemingly want more chaos and damage done to this country. They want more of this because⦠like their leader⦠they never admit the mistake and want to double-down on it. They have effectively stopped thinking for themselves and have subjugated their identity to this âforceâ. The force that has come to represent the big âf*ck youâ to the non-initiated and the government establishment. They want Trump as president not because of anything he can accomplish, they want him because of the sh*t he can stir up and the visceral reaction he elicits from the left. Doesnât seem any more complicated that that from where I sit.
Iâve come to realize that I donât share the same vision of the world I would like to live in vs most die hard Trump supporters. I wish I could say that I am against Trumpâs platform but since he never articulates one, I would have to assume that, if he did I would be at odds with it. The bottom line is that the term âfinding common groundâ for me with core Trump supports just isnât even feasible. Battle lines are drawn. So be it.
I know it's fun to call someone dumb; lord knows I do it all the time under my breath.
But if we fall into the rhythm of thinking all Trump supporters are dumb, we're gonna get served. I know plenty of people who are 1) outwardly very humane, like taking in homeless pregnant mom and raising her as their daughter or 2) extremely smart, like the world expert in a species of fish genetics and a nice high chess ranking - but they still support Trump for whatever reason. And you know that - as incoherent as Trump is - he's the sock puppet and there are plenty of white guys with money who are gonna prompt him so he can stay a figurehead for their plans.
So making sure he doesn't screw up the country/world even more obligates people to believe (against the frequent evidence) that Trump, his circle, and his followers are worthy adversaries and ramp up the strategy - including the long game.
To me, part of that is leaving Biden behind and replacing him, close to the election, with someone younger and formidable. And those people exist. My suspicion is that they're being held back to avoid the inevitable "ermagherd they're not a citizen" stuff we've seen repeatedly. But, hopefully, somewhere there's a room of strategists who expect that they're up against something intelligent, coordinated, substantial, and bad for the nation.
Trump is dumb. Thereâs no hiding that fact and he reinforces it almost daily in his words and actions. The real question is⦠is he dangerous and that clearly is a âYesâ. Heâs upped the level of distrust and discord of peopleâs view of the government and their view of others. We see that he is not a unifying force by any means. Rather, he sows and thrives on creating and spreading lies and chaos. When has this ever been a âpresidentialâ quality?
Iâve lost patience with Trump supporters that are willfully ignorant to what he has done but I especially take issue with those that know exactly what he has done and the damage that he has caused and seemingly want more chaos and damage done to this country. They want more of this because⦠like their leader⦠they never admit the mistake and want to double-down on it. They have effectively stopped thinking for themselves and have subjugated their identity to this âforceâ. The force that has come to represent the big âf*ck youâ to the non-initiated and the government establishment. They want Trump as president not because of anything he can accomplish, they want him because of the sh*t he can stir up and the visceral reaction he elicits from the left. Doesnât seem any more complicated that that from where I sit.
Iâve come to realize that I donât share the same vision of the world I would like to live in vs most die hard Trump supporters. I wish I could say that I am against Trumpâs platform but since he never articulates one I would have to assume that, if he did, I would be at odds with it. The bottom line is that the term âfinding common groundâ for me with core Trump supporters just isnât even feasible. Battle lines are drawn. So be it.
It's not that I don't like Biden. He's been doing fine. But, and I've said this too much, I would've voted for Huntsman instead of second Obama because of the baggage the latter was carrying. His ability to cut through it all required significant amounts of diverted attention (it seemed).
So, with Biden, great job. But his age will cause some people to pause, as it should. Let's think eight years instead of just four, since the GOP is in such a vulnerable position. Consider some combination of Buttigieg, Klobuchar, Whitmer. Fire in their bellies, a good track record, and - so far - no one's accused them of killing scared children in order to harvest adenochrome, but that day will come when they announce. So I get that they'll take their time for the moment, so as to let Joe have the limelight he deserves.
Good conversation between you and kcar...and I think THIS is the discussion of the 2024 election. Does Joe not running (for whatever reason) put the Dems at risk? For all of the obvious concerns and problems, I can't imagine the Dems can produce a more viable candidate than an almost 82-year-old on election day Joe Biden. I like Buttigieg. I think Gavin Newsom on a national stage would be interesting to see. Hakeem Jefferies could be interesting. But nobody has the record and the leverage that Biden has. His age is THE issue, and until he is unable to do the job, it's hard to see anyone on the left doing it better. The debt ceiling deal proves that. He's still a pretty good politician.
I think the opportunity for the right is anyone but Trump. I think DeSantis has painted himself into a corner he can't win from, but if the Republicans can find their way into picking a younger moderate, they might offer a real option for anyone who thinks Joe is just too damn old. As a NJ resident, I have mixed emotions about him... but someone like Chris Christie, or Chris Sununu, of Glenn Youngkin, might be able to thread the needle.
I can't see any way that Trump defeats Biden, but if it's not Trump... Joe's age could be a much bigger factor in a year.
The Democratic party cannot expect to win in 2024 by defeating Biden in the primaries, even with someone combining the charisma of Obama and Bill Clinton. As it is, what don't you like about Biden? His age? He's got all his marbles. Inflation? Every other country is dealing with inflation. Dick Nixon, Gerry Ford and Jimmy Carter found out how hard it is for a president to curb or stop inflation.
It's not that I don't like Biden. He's been doing fine. But, and I've said this too much, I would've voted for Huntsman instead of second Obama because of the baggage the latter was carrying. His ability to cut through it all required significant amounts of diverted attention (it seemed).
So, with Biden, great job. But his age will cause some people to pause, as it should. Let's think eight years instead of just four, since the GOP is in such a vulnerable position. Consider some combination of Buttigieg, Klobuchar, Whitmer. Fire in their bellies, a good track record, and - so far - no one's accused them of killing scared children in order to harvest adenochrome, but that day will come when they announce. So I get that they'll take their time for the moment, so as to let Joe have the limelight he deserves.
I know it's fun to call someone dumb; lord knows I do it all the time under my breath.
But if we fall into the rhythm of thinking all Trump supporters are dumb, we're gonna get served. I know plenty of people who are 1) outwardly very humane, like taking in homeless pregnant mom and raising her as their daughter or 2) extremely smart, like the world expert in a species of fish genetics and a nice high chess ranking - but they still support Trump for whatever reason. And you know thhttps://radioparadise.com/#at - as incoherent as Trump is - he's the sock puppet and there are plenty of white guys with money who are gonna prompt him so he can stay a figurehead for their plans.
So making sure he doesn't screw up the country/world even more obligates people to believe (against the frequent evidence) that Trump, his circle, and his followers are worthy adversaries and ramp up the strategy - including the long game.
To me, part of that is leaving Biden behind and replacing him, close to the election, with someone younger and formidable. And those people exist. My suspicion is that they're being held back to avoid the inevitable "ermagherd they're not a citizen" stuff we've seen repeatedly. But, hopefully, somewhere there's a room of strategists who expect that they're up against something intelligent, coordinated, substantial, and bad for the nation.
I would have posted this sooner if I'd spotted your response.
Kurt's not dumb. I have a lot of respect for his grit and wide range of real-world experience. At times I've suspected he plays dumb—for instance when he posted something to the effect that he didn't provide evidence backing his claims because he wasn't skilled at looking stuff up on the Web. Or when Kurt repeated Trump's complaint that the FBI never took possession of the DNC's server hardware when it investigated potential Russian interference in the 2016 election even though he likely knew from his own experience in working with computers that images of the server OS and stored software were the relevant pieces of information (which the FBI had long had when Trump complained).
My best guess is that Trump, for Kurt—and many other bright, successful and patriotic Americans—Trump represents a vision of America that they think is under threat from foreign competition, immigration, minority groups intent on changing the status quo for their selfish benefit, politically entrenched elite groups sponging off the federal government, etc.
At this point in time, though, I don't have a lot of patience with people's continued support for Trump or even their willingness to make some excuses for Trump's behavior. Trump was president for four long, ugly and disastrous years. He happily prolonged and worsened divisions in America, promoted hatred and bigotry, caused 40% of our current national debt by an unnecessary tax cut for the rich, tried to dismantle our healthcare system, badly botched the national response to COVID (and almost killed himself in doing so) and tried to overthrow our federal government when he couldn't get the 2020 votes in battleground states "fixed" so he could win.
Kurt's not dumb. But at this point I read his posts defending Trump or claiming that Biden is a the biggest threat to the US with impatience and perhaps too much contempt. Trump had his shot. He was a F*#$king disaster. We are still slogging through the fallout of Trump's stupidity and disregard for the law. Did Trump really think he could get Raffensperger to change the 2020 GA presidential vote when he called on JANUARY 2, 2021—after GA had recounted the votes three times and certified the election? Did he seriously think he could stop the transition of power to Biden on January 6, 2021 by inciting a mob to storm the Capitol building and disrupt the formal presentation of electoral college votes? And how the F$%ck did Trump believe that he could get away with holding onto 300+ federal documents, some of them with the most classified designation, after he was repeatedly asked to return them and told that he was breaking serious laws by retaining them?
Kurt's support for Trump at this point reminds of a world-class physicist I met years ago, Paul Frampton. For all his considerable ability and accomplishments in the field of physics, Paul was and is a total boob in matters outside of the discipline. He became convinced that he had struck up an online romance with Denise Milani, an Internet model 30+ years younger than Frampton. He happily traveled to a South American country to move a suitcase for "Denise" to another country, but got arrested when the luggage was found to hold 2 kilos of cocaine. Clearly a honeypot scam—but Paul struggled and struggled to realize that he'd been duped. He served about 18 months in a very nasty Argentinian prison. You can read about it in a long piece in the New York Times Sunday Magazine called "The Professor, the Bikini Model and the Suitcase Full of Trouble."
Yes, I felt bad for Paul Frampton when he went to prison and almost died from digestive issues when incarcerated. But overall I loathe the man for all the damage he's done to the people around him, who tried to help him over the years. Because Paul just uses people without remorse—after all, he's The Great Frampton! Physics Genius! And sadly, people make all sorts of excuses for Paul because he's great at physics.
So I respect Kurt. But when it comes to Trump, Kurt is a sucker and a fool. People like him who support Trump risk damaging this country beyond repair.
You wrote
"To me, part of that is leaving Biden behind and replacing him, close to the election, with someone younger and formidable. And those people exist."
Sorry, you're stuck with Joe in 2024. David Letterman kinda summed up the situation back in 2004 when John Kerry was running against GW Bush shortly after our invasion of Iraq. The media and the White House kept pushing the notion that we were at war with terrorism and Bush was a War President. Letterman was talking to his uncle about Iraq and the lack of WMDs found and the chaos in the country after Saddam fell. The uncle wasn't happy with any of that and didn't think much of Bush but said, "You don't change horses in midstream."
The Democratic party cannot expect to win in 2024 by defeating Biden in the primaries, even with someone combining the charisma of Obama and Bill Clinton. As it is, what don't you like about Biden? His age? He's got all his marbles. Inflation? Every other country is dealing with inflation. Dick Nixon, Gerry Ford and Jimmy Carter found out how hard it is for a president to curb or stop inflation.
It seems contagious: see kurtster's comment that geoff_morphini replied to just below...
I know it's fun to call someone dumb; lord knows I do it all the time under my breath.
But if we fall into the rhythm of thinking all Trump supporters are dumb, we're gonna get served. I know plenty of people who are 1) outwardly very humane, like taking in homeless pregnant mom and raising her as their daughter or 2) extremely smart, like the world expert in a species of fish genetics and a nice high chess ranking - but they still support Trump for whatever reason. And you know that - as incoherent as Trump is - he's the sock puppet and there are plenty of white guys with money who are gonna prompt him so he can stay a figurehead for their plans.
So making sure he doesn't screw up the country/world even more obligates people to believe (against the frequent evidence) that Trump, his circle, and his followers are worthy adversaries and ramp up the strategy - including the long game.
To me, part of that is leaving Biden behind and replacing him, close to the election, with someone younger and formidable. And those people exist. My suspicion is that they're being held back to avoid the inevitable "ermagherd they're not a citizen" stuff we've seen repeatedly. But, hopefully, somewhere there's a room of strategists who expect that they're up against something intelligent, coordinated, substantial, and bad for the nation.
