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NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 10:41pm

 R_P wrote:

It used to be uncontroversial to not be pro-NATO...



wanna tissue?
NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 10:36pm

 R_P wrote:

National interests (potentially) subservient to yours. Iraq is a country, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc., etc. Their sovereignty or national interests were of little concern.

Some annexations barely raise a US eyebrow. The US annexed as well.


Why on earth do you think this war has anything to do with US hegemony?  Until recently the US has been appalling at supporting Ukraine and its support is still pretty paltry. 

Russia has been bombing the civilian population of Ukraine on a daily basis, committing war crime after war crime as it lobs guided missiles, drones and glide bombs at civilian targets for well over two years and how many Patriot batteries did the US give them? Just one. That's right just ONE. 
And this list goes on:
NO aircraft (apart from 20 Soviet-era helicopters from Afghanistan)
Just 76 tanks, again most of which were Soviet-build stock
20 HIMARs, etc. etc.
At the same time, it refused to allow Ukraine to attack any sites inside Russia, effectively telling Ukraine to just grin and bear it. 

If anything, the US has been following a wink, wink, nudge, nudge, policy of appeasement that has only encouraged the Russians. 
But no, you continue to insist this is a battle of mighty Soviet power against the feeble west and NATO projecting its power. 
Scuse my French, but like fuck it is.


If there is one single country that gives me hope for the future, it is Ukraine. Not Russia, Not China. Not the U.S.  Not Germany.
Ukraine.

R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 9:22pm

Ukraine-Russia Peace Is as Elusive as Ever. But in 2022 They Were Talking.
Representatives from the warring nations held peace talks in the early weeks of the Russian invasion. They fizzled. Documents from those talks show why any new ones will face major obstacles.
R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 9:02pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
Yeah, opposing a defensive alliance can be a fashionable stance until your neighbors start getting invaded.

The good old days.

Yugoslavia or Ukraine were not part of the offensive alliance. Invasions are terrible unless American Power is involved. Special rules from the "liberal" rules-based "order." Please.

Department of "Defense" does a lot of defending. Aggression gets reframed as defense. Look around.

R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 8:59pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
Ukraine is a country. With "national interests"—like not being invaded. Like not having its territory seized in a war of conquest. That just doesn't seem to register for you. Why is that?

National interests (potentially) subservient to yours. Iraq is a country, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, etc., etc. Their sovereignty or national interests were of little concern.

Some annexations barely raise a US eyebrow. The US annexed as well.
Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 8:48pm

 R_P wrote:
It used to be uncontroversial to not be pro-NATO...

Yeah, opposing a defensive alliance can be a fashionable stance until your neighbors start getting invaded.

The good old days.
Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 8:42pm

 R_P wrote:
It only takes a little bit of understanding and some humility to know that there are other countries that have their own "national interests" that are not going to be subservient to yours. That's understanding, not advocacy.

Facile straw men and red herrings won't help you sell overpriced and overrated "American Power™." Maybe still with some domestically and with some allies, but it comes with a lot of strings attached.

Ukraine is a country. With "national interests"—like not being invaded. Like not having its territory seized in a war of conquest. That just doesn't seem to register for you. Why is that?
R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:31pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
et voilá!! 

It used to be uncontroversial to not be pro-NATO...

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:29pm

 R_P wrote:

You clearly have the need. Being against hegemony would be non-neutral. As would being in favour.


et voilá!!  

R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:22pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
I'll take that as an admission of your non-neutrality.

You clearly have the need. Being against hegemony would be non-neutral. As would being in favour.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:21pm

 R_P wrote:

Just as it makes you complicit in all hegemonic war and subversion?


I'll take that as an admission of your non-neutrality.

R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:12pm

 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:

FYT

.. and "understanding" these fascist regimes makes you complicit in this war against the will of the people.  We are talking about Ukraine here, right?


Just as it makes you complicit in all hegemonic war and subversion?

Some in the West like fascism. Always have. Me? Not so much.

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:08pm

 R_P wrote:

It only takes a little bit of understanding and some humility to know that there are fascist regimes whose leaders have their own "interests" at heart and  are not going to be subservient to the interests of the people. That's understanding, not advocacy.


FYT

.. and "understanding" these fascist regimes makes you complicit in this war against the will of the people.  We are talking about Ukraine here, right?

NoEnzLefttoSplit

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 6:02pm

 R_P wrote:

Except nothing is "easily-replaced," see the supply chain. Not the missiles, not the launchers. Without launchers there are no... launches. Pretty expensive radar works though.

I am not here to defend Russia or it's armaments. The article was about your side.

Save your dollars for the Ukrainians. A hundred bucks could buy them some candles. I've heard they might need some this winter.


  Except you do. All. The. Time.
R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 5:52pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
(...) Take comfort where you can.

It only takes a little bit of understanding and some humility to know that there are other countries that have their own "national interests" that are not going to be subservient to yours. That's understanding, not advocacy.

Facile straw men and red herrings won't help you sell overpriced and overrated "American Power™." Maybe still with some domestically and with some allies, but it comes with a lot of strings attached.

Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 5:29pm

 R_P wrote:
Except nothing is "easily-replaced," see the supply chain. Not the missiles, not the launchers. Without launchers there are no... launches. Pretty expensive radar works though.

The thing about missile-based air defense systems is that the rockets are consumables. They're supposed to be replaced. The launcher is the simplest part of it.

Best numbers I can find say the launcher (M902) is about $10M. The cheapest missile it fires (the PAC-2 GEM-T, which fit 4 to a launcher) each cost $3.7M. A full load of those missiles costs more than the launcher.

I am not here to defend Russia or it's armaments. The article was about your side.

You're funny. I like you!

I don't do bets, ever, but time will obviously tell. It can't be too far off now. The F-16s and the glorious victory of Ukraine.

That'll really chap your ass, won't it? If it weren't for the whole stopping-the-(hopefully)-last-despotic-war-of-conquest-in-Europe thing that would make me feel just terrible.
Save your dollars for the Ukrainians. A hundred bucks could buy them some candles. I've heard they might need some this winter.

Proud of that, are you?

Putin may have wasted an entire generation of young men in two countries, squandered his country's future and resources, and made enemies of its neighbors but by golly he made those Ukrainians suffer.

Take comfort where you can.
R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 11:55am

 Lazy8 wrote:

Yes, launchers. The trucks with tubes that shoot the missiles out. The cheapest, easiest to spot, and most easily-replaced component in a battery. That's why I counted radars.

They were ambushed on the move, when the radar isn't operating and can't shoot back. Still counts of course, but it's not the part of the system that makes it cost north of a billion dollars.

The S-400 systems destroyed were all operational. Some of them even launched at the incoming missiles and drones that took them out. If you want to count launchers then your side looks even worse: Russia has lost 17 S-400 launchers.

And if you want to count rocket artillery systems lost (HIMARS is artillery, not anti-air) I encourage you to compare the loss statistics for both the Ukrainians and your side. Real statistics, of course—Sergey Shoigu does not count.

Offer stands. A hundred filthy capitalist dollars you could send to Russia to buy part of a glide bomb to drop on a Ukrainian hardware store. All it takes is Russia to prove its obvious superiority at weapons development.


Except nothing is "easily-replaced," see the supply chain. Not the missiles, not the launchers. Without launchers there are no... launches. Pretty expensive radar works though.

I am not here to defend Russia or it's armaments. The article was about your side.

I don't do bets, ever, but time will obviously tell. It can't be too far off now. The F-16s and the glorious victory of Ukraine.

Save your dollars for the Ukrainians. A hundred bucks could buy them some candles. I've heard they might need some this winter.

Lazy8

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Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 10:12am

 R_P wrote:

You're full of it?

A Russian Drone Spotted A Ukrainian Patriot Air-Defense Crew Convoying Near The Front Line. Soon, A Russian Hypersonic Missile Streaked Down.
Ukraine just lost its first Patriot launchers, and probably their crews.

He who must not be named or believed says it's five launchers gone.

Yes, launchers. The trucks with tubes that shoot the missiles out. The cheapest, easiest to spot, and most easily-replaced component in a battery. That's why I counted radars.

They were ambushed on the move, when the radar isn't operating and can't shoot back. Still counts of course, but it's not the part of the system that makes it cost north of a billion dollars.

The S-400 systems destroyed were all operational. Some of them even launched at the incoming missiles and drones that took them out. If you want to count launchers then your side looks even worse: Russia has lost 17 S-400 launchers.

And if you want to count rocket artillery systems lost (HIMARS is artillery, not anti-air) I encourage you to compare the loss statistics for both the Ukrainians and your side. Real statistics, of course—Sergey Shoigu does not count.

Offer stands. A hundred filthy capitalist dollars you could send to Russia to buy part of a glide bomb to drop on a Ukrainian hardware store. All it takes is Russia to prove its obvious superiority at weapons development.

R_P

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Posted: Jun 15, 2024 - 1:29am

 Lazy8 wrote:
Patriot has been in production since 1981. Significant upgrades over time, but the basic system is over 40 years old. Ukraine has lost...let's see...carry the 7...none. (...)

What do you say? 

You're full of it?

A Russian Drone Spotted A Ukrainian Patriot Air-Defense Crew Convoying Near The Front Line. Soon, A Russian Hypersonic Missile Streaked Down.
Ukraine just lost its first Patriot launchers, and probably their crews.

He who must not be named or believed says it's five launchers gone.

haresfur

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Posted: Jun 14, 2024 - 11:03pm

 R_P wrote:

I think you mean Russian invaded areas
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