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The Obituary Page - ScottFromWyoming - Feb 25, 2021 - 8:45am
 
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Predictions - rhahl - Feb 25, 2021 - 4:12am
 
Gardeners Corner - haresfur - Feb 25, 2021 - 12:37am
 
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ALAC Stream Links? - rwyatt - Feb 24, 2021 - 1:32pm
 
Regarding cats - westslope - Feb 24, 2021 - 1:23pm
 
I am Thinking of: - oldviolin - Feb 24, 2021 - 1:20pm
 
Climate Change - NoEnzLefttoSplit - Feb 24, 2021 - 1:05pm
 
How's the weather? - GeneP59 - Feb 24, 2021 - 12:59pm
 
Baseball, anyone? - ScottFromWyoming - Feb 24, 2021 - 12:55pm
 
Photography Forum - Your Own Photos - deltaindia - Feb 24, 2021 - 12:41pm
 
Crazy conspiracy theories - R_P - Feb 24, 2021 - 11:28am
 
Capitalism and Consumerism... now what? - ScottFromWyoming - Feb 24, 2021 - 10:23am
 
Offline Cache not working anymore - jarro - Feb 24, 2021 - 9:26am
 
Trump - westslope - Feb 24, 2021 - 9:05am
 
The No Phone Zone - Proclivities - Feb 24, 2021 - 6:56am
 
LeftWingNutZ - islander - Feb 24, 2021 - 6:35am
 
Those Lovable Policemen - haresfur - Feb 24, 2021 - 12:55am
 
The All-Things Beatles Forum - kurtster - Feb 23, 2021 - 10:54pm
 
Vinyl Only Spin List - kurtster - Feb 23, 2021 - 7:14pm
 
American Justice - Red_Dragon - Feb 23, 2021 - 6:49pm
 
Questions. - Red_Dragon - Feb 23, 2021 - 6:32pm
 
Movie Quote - Antigone - Feb 23, 2021 - 3:56pm
 
Name My Band - rgio - Feb 23, 2021 - 12:26pm
 
• • • BRING OUT YOUR DEAD • • •  - sirdroseph - Feb 23, 2021 - 12:18pm
 
Marijuana: Baked News. - JrzyTmata - Feb 23, 2021 - 12:05pm
 
• • • The Once-a-Day • • •  - Proclivities - Feb 23, 2021 - 9:36am
 
Bug Reports & Feature Requests - jarro - Feb 23, 2021 - 8:53am
 
Counting with Pictures - Proclivities - Feb 23, 2021 - 6:46am
 
Automotive Lust - kurtster - Feb 22, 2021 - 5:29pm
 
Photos you have taken of yourself - Ohmsen - Feb 22, 2021 - 4:46pm
 
What did you have for lunch? - Ohmsen - Feb 22, 2021 - 4:03pm
 
2020 Elections - R_P - Feb 22, 2021 - 12:51pm
 
Index » Radio Paradise/General » General Discussion » Capitalism and Consumerism... now what? Page: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
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ScottFromWyoming

ScottFromWyoming Avatar

Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2021 - 10:23am



 Lazy8 wrote:
I doubt any talking heads would be blaming their regulatory structure.
 

Point of order: California's regulatory structure is the talking heads' Poster Child for Whatever is Needing an Example.
rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2021 - 9:30am



 westslope wrote:


3.  Yes, I would tax tampons. Along with groceries and books.   I would apply a value-added sales tax on everything.   No exceptions.  

The USA should have done this in the last century.   
 
Generally agree, but there have to be exceptions for decency and humanitarian reasons.  You shouldn't have to pay a tax because you needed surgery after being hit by a car.  There is no need for the government to benefit from your death...so your funeral shouldn't really be taxed (not taxing the estate, yet collecting $120 on the casket...?).  Medicines, sanitary products, personal hygiene... is the tax really going to make a difference?

We currently have over 18,000 individual taxing jurisdictions in the US.  It's a disaster.  One, standard VAT would make a ton of sense and save billions in compliance and collection costs...but where would those people work?  I don't much care where they work, but as a friend of mine used to say, "turkeys don't vote for Christmas".   It's hard for politicians to stand up to crazy...who is going to look thousands of people in the eye and say "I know this is going to be difficult, but it's for the good of the country....good luck finding a job".

The US needs an intelligent and fair re-design for all taxation.   We have the technology to build compliance into the system but lack the leadership.

Since global warming is an existential threat, make gasoline $10/gallon and public transportation almost free.  Give away guns...but tax ammunition at $5 per bullet.  There is a lot we could do and should do...but we can't agree if our President has the first amendment right to send his hoarde to the capital to stop democracy by killing police officers....we're going to agree on taxation?

Final thought:  If you add VAT to EVERYTHING...then you have to increase wages...it's almost a zero-sum game but has friction costs that reduce the value of the implementation.  Smart policy is better than strict implementation.

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2021 - 8:51am

islander wrote:
But to do this it takes a lot of money, and one way to do it is to connect to other grids - which requires complying with regulation. Texans wanted cheap energy and they are fond of no regulations, so they didn't connect to other grids, and they didn't spend the money (to keep energy cheap) to add additional distributed capacity. 

So to point this back to the topic, Texas built a system that fit their ideology and demand for cheap energy. It couldn't respond to an unusual event, because that didn't fit the supply/demand equation they had, so it failed when the unusual condition came along. It's not really surprising, but now that people have died it gets a lot of attention. It's also a bit glaring to have the 'independent/go it alone' rugged Texans calling for help and assistance, when they are famously unwilling to lend a hand to others when there is need.  So capitalism and consumerism (and ideology) led us here. Now what?  Will they comply with regulations that would allow them to interconnect? Will they build more capacity?  Will their public utility commission actually do something proactive instead of reactive?  Or will everyone forget this once spring rolls around and we have another thing to be aghast at?

I do find it funny that Ford is making a big deal about their trucks with onboard generators helping out in the crisis. This is a perfect example of how small distributed alternative sources could be used to improve the grid. This could just as easily be done with Many Toyota and Hondas, and Tesla / Nissan charging infrastructure could easily be configured to be a source instead of a load.

It takes money people are willing to spend, at least when they have it, and once they realize the value of having reliable power. As your business model demonstrates.

Texas' grid failed for technological reasons, and putting Bernie Sanders in charge wouldn't have prevented valves from freezing or power lines from snapping. Tying into a larger grid would help some, but Texas' grid is so large that the widespread failures at the local level would have still caused outages, and would have likely caused shortages in neighboring areas.

Heavily (ridiculously? absurdly?) regulated states have power problems all the time. As you move into residential power systems you'll find a lot of customers in California, the anti-Texas. I still have a lot of friends there and a topic that comes up on our weekly beer-and-Zoom call is the power situation—most of these folks have grid-tied residential PV systems, some with with battery backups—because the utility power is so unreliable. They aren't freezing to death because it's southern California and it isn't their turn for anomalous weather, but it's a problem they deal with constantly. People without the means to pay for that kind of infrastructure just have to cope, and if the freak winter weather had hit them instead of Texas—probably with identical outcomes—I doubt any talking heads would be blaming their regulatory structure.
westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Feb 24, 2021 - 8:26am



 kurtster wrote:

.......

A serious question as you seem to want to tax behaviour for punitive reasons.

 

1.  I did not view the world in that way.   Too Dark Ages for me.    You are caught in a vortex of Evil versus Good.  I am not.

2.  Some taxes should be designed to discourage behaviour.  Yes, absolutely.  

3.  Yes, I would tax tampons. Along with groceries and books.   I would apply a value-added sales tax on everything.   No exceptions.  

The USA should have done this in the last century.   
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2021 - 6:55am



 Lazy8 wrote:
NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Not quite sure why this topic has ended up in this thread but isn't the critical technical issue with renewables keeping grid stability? Remote, independent generation is all well and good but if you want an interregional grid to function, you need a stable source of power to cover your base load with enough resources available to come quickly online to handle peaks (at least as I understand it - total non-techie here). 
Just one more reason as I see it to invest in 4-gen nuclear.
My wife is in the German Green party, so we are at loggerheads on this, but even in her party they are worried about grid stability now that renewables account for so much of the nation's generating capacity and both coal and nuclear are getting phased out.

This discussion wound up in this thread because it's fashionable to blame the Texas grid's collapse on capitalism (because everything is capitalism's fault, and if you can mumble the magical incantation "deregulation" you get bonus anti-capitalism points) so why not?

The grid's purpose is to distribute power from where it's made to where it's needed. Renewables—at least distributed renewables—aren't a particular problem for grid stability precisely because they're distributed. Grid stability breaks down when big changes happen all of a sudden, like a critical line or a point source going down. When a small draw turns into a small supply that's still a small change, even if it happens quickly.

To harden a grid against disruption you need sources you can ramp up and down quickly, but you need distributed sources. That way you can lose large parts of the grid but keep it online.


 
But to do this it takes a lot of money, and one way to do it is to connect to other grids - which requires complying with regulation. Texans wanted cheap energy and they are fond of no regulations, so they didn't connect to other grids, and they didn't spend the money (to keep energy cheap) to add additional distributed capacity. 

So to point this back to the topic, Texas built a system that fit their ideology and demand for cheap energy. It couldn't respond to an unusual event, because that didn't fit the supply/demand equation they had, so it failed when the unusual condition came along. It's not really surprising, but now that people have died it gets a lot of attention. It's also a bit glaring to have the 'independent/go it alone' rugged Texans calling for help and assistance, when they are famously unwilling to lend a hand to others when there is need.  So capitalism and consumerism (and ideology) led us here. Now what?  Will they comply with regulations that would allow them to interconnect? Will they build more capacity?  Will their public utility commission actually do something proactive instead of reactive?  Or will everyone forget this once spring rolls around and we have another thing to be aghast at?

I do find it funny that Ford is making a big deal about their trucks with onboard generators helping out in the crisis. This is a perfect example of how small distributed alternative sources could be used to improve the grid. This could just as easily be done with Many Toyota and Hondas, and Tesla / Nissan charging infrastructure could easily be configured to be a source instead of a load.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2021 - 1:10am

 haresfur wrote:


 kurtster wrote:

Is there anything you will not tax or not want taxed ? 

A serious question as you seem to want to tax behaviour for punitive reasons.

 
Can't speak for westslope but I'd say tampons.

But taxing products to cover costs incurred by others isn't punative

 
{#Lol} Agreed. On both counts.
haresfur

haresfur Avatar

Location: The Golden Triangle
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 24, 2021 - 12:59am



 kurtster wrote:

Is there anything you will not tax or not want taxed ? 

A serious question as you seem to want to tax behaviour for punitive reasons.

 
Can't speak for westslope but I'd say tampons.

But taxing products to cover costs incurred by others isn't punative

kurtster

kurtster Avatar

Location: where fear is not a virtue
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 7:55pm

 westslope wrote:
In fact, regulators should really add excise taxes to electricity because not all the social and environmental costs are covered by market-determined prices.  

 
Is there anything you will not tax or not want taxed ? 

A serious question as you seem to want to tax behaviour for punitive reasons.

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 5:36pm

NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
Not quite sure why this topic has ended up in this thread but isn't the critical technical issue with renewables keeping grid stability? Remote, independent generation is all well and good but if you want an interregional grid to function, you need a stable source of power to cover your base load with enough resources available to come quickly online to handle peaks (at least as I understand it - total non-techie here). 
Just one more reason as I see it to invest in 4-gen nuclear.
My wife is in the German Green party, so we are at loggerheads on this, but even in her party they are worried about grid stability now that renewables account for so much of the nation's generating capacity and both coal and nuclear are getting phased out.

This discussion wound up in this thread because it's fashionable to blame the Texas grid's collapse on capitalism (because everything is capitalism's fault, and if you can mumble the magical incantation "deregulation" you get bonus anti-capitalism points) so why not?

The grid's purpose is to distribute power from where it's made to where it's needed. Renewables—at least distributed renewables—aren't a particular problem for grid stability precisely because they're distributed. Grid stability breaks down when big changes happen all of a sudden, like a critical line or a point source going down. When a small draw turns into a small supply that's still a small change, even if it happens quickly.

To harden a grid against disruption you need sources you can ramp up and down quickly, but you need distributed sources. That way you can lose large parts of the grid but keep it online.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 2:30pm



 rhahl wrote:
.....
 
Texas Froze by Design James K. Galbraith, Project Syndicate
 
Good piece.  To nuance,  aggregate demand for electricity is price inelastic.   Consumers still respond to price incentives.

In fact, regulators should really add excise taxes to electricity because not all the social and environmental costs are covered by market-determined prices.  

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 2:21pm



 NoEnzLefttoSplit wrote:
....
 didn't know he was still alive.
...
 

James is the son of John Kenneth Galbraith.   

I met senior Galbraith once when I was a graduate student/peace and disarmament researcher and active in the movement.
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 11:03am

 rhahl wrote:
Harvard Kennedy School’s William Hogan is credited with designing the Texas energy market. As Texans froze and their water pipes burst, he reportedly remarked that the state’s energy market has functioned as designed.
 
Texas Froze by Design James K. Galbraith, Project Syndicate
 
{#Clap}  didn't know he was still alive. 
The problem is that electricity demand is inelastic: it doesn’t respond much to price, but it does respond to weather. In times of extreme heat or cold, demand becomes even more inelastic. And, unlike in an ordinary market, supply must equal demand every minute of every day. If it doesn’t, the entire system can fail...

...The new system did work most of the time. Prices rose and fell. Customers who didn’t sign long-term contracts faced some risk. One provider, called Griddy, had a special model: for a $9.99 monthly membership fee, you could get your power at the wholesale price. Most of the time, that was cheap.

But people don’t need electricity “most of the time”; they need it all the timeAnd, at least by 2011, when Texas experienced a short, severe freeze, the state’s leaders knew that the system was radically unstable in extreme weather. The system’s architects knew it as well, whatever they say now.

rhahl

rhahl Avatar



Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 10:57am

Harvard Kennedy School’s William Hogan is credited with designing the Texas energy market. As Texans froze and their water pipes burst, he reportedly remarked that the state’s energy market has functioned as designed.
 
Texas Froze by Design James K. Galbraith, Project Syndicate
NoEnzLefttoSplit

NoEnzLefttoSplit Avatar

Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 10:43am

 Lazy8 wrote:
Red_Dragon wrote:
I'd like to see the electric utilities start turning into providers of individual solar farms/roofs. They could install the systems and lease them to individual customers. In this way, "the grid" could be done away with incrementally.

Utilities are poorly equipped to do this, and there are numerous more-agile (and more innovative) players taking on this role. If your expertise is connecting power suppliers to users stick to that. There is nothing inherently wrong with that as a practice or a business model.

After all, a grid is  nothing but a way for those with surplus power to share it with those without enough. The fact (and it is a fact) that maintaining that grid takes labor, materials, land, and energy means it has to be paid for. It's worth having and it's worth paying for.

If you don't want to share power with your neighbors then reconcile yourself to occasionally shivvering in the dark or having your generation system sit there idle when your battery is charged but the sun is shining.
 
Not quite sure why this topic has ended up in this thread but isn't the critical technical issue with renewables keeping grid stability? Remote, independent generation is all well and good but if you want an interregional grid to function, you need a stable source of power to cover your base load with enough resources available to come quickly online to handle peaks (at least as I understand it - total non-techie here). 
Just one more reason as I see it to invest in 4-gen nuclear.
My wife is in the German Green party, so we are at loggerheads on this, but even in her party they are worried about grid stability now that renewables account for so much of the nation's generating capacity and both coal and nuclear are getting phased out.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 8:20am

Red_Dragon wrote:
I'd like to see the electric utilities start turning into providers of individual solar farms/roofs. They could install the systems and lease them to individual customers. In this way, "the grid" could be done away with incrementally.

Utilities are poorly equipped to do this, and there are numerous more-agile (and more innovative) players taking on this role. If your expertise is connecting power suppliers to users stick to that. There is nothing inherently wrong with that as a practice or a business model.

After all, a grid is  nothing but a way for those with surplus power to share it with those without enough. The fact (and it is a fact) that maintaining that grid takes labor, materials, land, and energy means it has to be paid for. It's worth having and it's worth paying for.

If you don't want to share power with your neighbors then reconcile yourself to occasionally shivvering in the dark or having your generation system sit there idle when your battery is charged but the sun is shining.
miamizsun

miamizsun Avatar

Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 23, 2021 - 5:05am

 islander wrote:

This is the right way. We do marine stuff now, but are branching out into off-grid. We are looking at grid tie, but regulation in the US is really difficult and is structured to make it hard for small guys and always favors the big providers - I bet you know a thing or two about this.  Our neighbors to the south are generally much better (probably partly because their grids are pretty spotty to begin with).  I'm pitching several small installs of self generation systems (solar w/ battery storage). Basically size the units for close to peak load. Then you can store surplus most of the day, you can use your own solar power to crank the AC in the afternoon for free, and then use the excess at night. If you run low or don't produce enough to cover peak, you can use the grid power everything.  Most places down south(of the boarder) will let you return excess to the grid as well. You spin the meter backwards and get a credit, they don't have to have as much supply when your neighbor kicks on the coffee pot in the morning. It's a win/win.   

We are a Victron dealer now, and they have some really cool stuff. They do end to end systems (at least in places where they can import solar panels), and have a really nice ability to build from 2KW up to 60KW three phase, self consumption, grid tie, all kinds of options for putting it together.  And then you can go online and monitor it from wherever you are:  https://vrm.victronenergy.com/...

 
yes solar capture/storage has come a long and it is getting better

it's also good at rural/isolated and ancillary applications (cost and speed)

key major infrastructure needs reliability and density

small modular reactors should be the base/core energy supply

smart nuclear is safe and extremely green too

i see space for both in the solution

re-centering edit: we need capital and markets to help with innovation and production
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 22, 2021 - 9:26am



 Red_Dragon wrote:


 islander wrote:




Smaller, standardized reactors are a better solution for now. But storage technologies have come a LONG way in a very short timeframe. Many are to the point now where they are a competitive solution - especially for smaller loads and remote locations.  Depending on your peak loading (especially if peak is mostly for AC during the hot/sunny day), up to about ~50KW it really makes more sense to do a PV installation with some flavor of battery or other energy storage. 
 


I'd like to see the electric utilities start turning into providers of individual solar farms/roofs. They could install the systems and lease them to individual customers. In this way, "the grid" could be done away with incrementally.

 

This is the right way. We do marine stuff now, but are branching out into off-grid. We are looking at grid tie, but regulation in the US is really difficult and is structured to make it hard for small guys and always favors the big providers - I bet you know a thing or two about this.  Our neighbors to the south are generally much better (probably partly because their grids are pretty spotty to begin with).  I'm pitching several small installs of self generation systems (solar w/ battery storage). Basically size the units for close to peak load. Then you can store surplus most of the day, you can use your own solar power to crank the AC in the afternoon for free, and then use the excess at night. If you run low or don't produce enough to cover peak, you can use the grid power everything.  Most places down south(of the boarder) will let you return excess to the grid as well. You spin the meter backwards and get a credit, they don't have to have as much supply when your neighbor kicks on the coffee pot in the morning. It's a win/win.   

We are a Victron dealer now, and they have some really cool stuff. They do end to end systems (at least in places where they can import solar panels), and have a really nice ability to build from 2KW up to 60KW three phase, self consumption, grid tie, all kinds of options for putting it together.  And then you can go online and monitor it from wherever you are:  https://vrm.victronenergy.com/...

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: Feb 22, 2021 - 8:59am

kurtster,

Cheap energy is a delusion.  

Instead of paying now, you pay with greater macroeconomic instability, poor health outcomes and dead Americans.  ~70 dead Texans and still rising. 

Given all the American citizens that have built homes in flood plains and exposed coastal littoral zones, do you support climate change denial kurtster?   Of course you do.  It might be an effective tool for population control kurtster, so I can see some of the advantages to climate change denial.



rgio

rgio Avatar

Location: West Jersey
Gender: Male


Posted: Feb 22, 2021 - 8:07am



 Red_Dragon wrote:


 islander wrote:




Smaller, standardized reactors are a better solution for now. But storage technologies have come a LONG way in a very short timeframe. Many are to the point now where they are a competitive solution - especially for smaller loads and remote locations.  Depending on your peak loading (especially if peak is mostly for AC during the hot/sunny day), up to about ~50KW it really makes more sense to do a PV installation with some flavor of battery or other energy storage. 
 
I'd like to see the electric utilities start turning into providers of individual solar farms/roofs. They could install the systems and lease them to individual customers. In this way, "the grid" could be done away with incrementally.

 
Bill Gates is on it.  First he has to get everyone vaccinated so he can track us...

</sarcasm...about the vaccines, not his new reactors>

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Feb 22, 2021 - 7:52am



 islander wrote:




Smaller, standardized reactors are a better solution for now. But storage technologies have come a LONG way in a very short timeframe. Many are to the point now where they are a competitive solution - especially for smaller loads and remote locations.  Depending on your peak loading (especially if peak is mostly for AC during the hot/sunny day), up to about ~50KW it really makes more sense to do a PV installation with some flavor of battery or other energy storage. 
 
I'd like to see the electric utilities start turning into providers of individual solar farms/roofs. They could install the systems and lease them to individual customers. In this way, "the grid" could be done away with incrementally.

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