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Index » Regional/Local » USA/Canada » The Abortion Wars Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 13, 14, 15  Next
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kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 19, 2019 - 4:33pm

 westslope wrote:
kcar,  You can try to make it as complicated you want.  In the meantime, here is a quote from the wiki-page on the subject of infanticide  that will get you pointed in the right direction:
Anthropologist Laila Williamson notes that "Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunter gatherers to high civilizations, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception, then, it has been the rule.":61
 
 
 
Complicated? It's not complicated. A zygote is not an infant. Nor is a blastocyst or an embryo. In US law a fetus is not considered a human being living outside its mother, with rights independent of that woman, i.e. an infant.
 
This thread focuses on abortion, a medical act typically performed on an embryo or fetus. In the US and other countries legally permitting abortion there are legal time limits tied to gestational progress so that killing approaching infanticide does not occur. I do not believe that legal abortions are infanticide. I define "infanticide" as the killing of an infant, that is a baby living outside of its mother.  
 
 
 

United States

In 1983, the United States ranked 11th for infants under 1 year killed, and fourth for those killed from 1 through 14 years (the latter case not necessarily involving filicide). In the U.S. over 600 children were killed by their parents in 1983.

In the United States the infanticide rate during the first hour of life outside the womb dropped from 1.41 per 100,000 during 1963 to 1972 to 0.44 per 100,000 for 1974 to 1983; the rates during the first month after birth also declined, whereas those for older infants rose during this time. The legalization of abortion, which was completed in 1973, was the most important factor in the decline in neonatal mortality during the period from 1964 to 1977, according to a study by economists associated with the National Bureau of Economic Research.

 
 
 
You wrote
 
 
 
"I'm good with infanticide if a reasonable of the citizenry also approves of infanticide.  But if the fellow citizens oppose infanticide, I am fine with the restriction."


 
So you're good with this (see below)? Really? (Again, from your Wikipedia article). Is this a Libertarian type of opinion? Personally, I'm against the killing of infants regardless of the attitudes of any citizenry. The Romans used to put live unwanted babies on refuse heaps to die. Not my thing, despite Roman acceptance of the practice. Then again, I'm against slavery regardless of popular opinions but maybe that's just me.
 
Let me ask you point blank: do you consider legal abortions in the US a form of infanticide? If you do, I'd like you to provide us with your definition of "infant." If you don't, you might want to start a new thread on infanticide.
 
Not that complicated.
 
The reason I'm a bit het up is some hard-right types in the US are trying to shift popular opinion by terming legal abortions as infanticide. Frankly, I think these people not basing their opinions on logic or biology or medical science. Many of the anti-abortion laws passed at state level are dangerous, excessively punitive and lacking any respect for women's rights.




Modern times

Infanticide has become less common in the Western world. The frequency has been estimated to be 1 in approximately 3000 to 5000 children of all ages and 2.1 per 100,000 newborns per year. It is thought that infanticide today continues at a much higher rate in areas of extremely high poverty and overpopulation, such as parts of China and India. Female infants, then and even now, are particularly vulnerable, a factor in sex-selective infanticide. Recent estimates suggest that over 100 million girls and women are 'missing' in Asia.

Benin

In spite of the fact that it is illegal, in Benin, West Africa, parents secretly continue with infanticidal customs.

North Korea

According to "The Hidden Gulag" published by the Committee for Human Rights in North Korea, the People's Republic of China returns all illegal immigrants from North Korea which usually imprisons them in a short term facility. Women who are suspected of being impregnated by Chinese fathers are subjected to forced abortions; babies born alive are killed, sometimes by exposure or being buried alive.





westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: May 19, 2019 - 3:18pm

kcar,  You can try to make it as complicated you want.  In the meantime, here is a quote from the wiki-page on the subject of infanticide  that will get you pointed in the right direction:


Anthropologist Laila Williamson notes that "Infanticide has been practiced on every continent and by people on every level of cultural complexity, from hunter gatherers to high civilizations, including our own ancestors. Rather than being an exception, then, it has been the rule."<3>:61



kcar

kcar Avatar



Posted: May 18, 2019 - 5:31pm

 westslope wrote:
I'm good with infanticide if a reasonable of the citizenry also approves of infanticide.  But if the fellow citizens oppose infanticide, I am fine with the restriction.

As for erecting barriers to medically safe abortions I strongly oppose for a whole slew of personal, moral, ethical, collective security and economic reasons.  Human capital is so critical in today's economy that the quality of child rearing and education is just as or more important than ever. Presumably wanted, planned children stand a better chance.  

 
 
You might want to define your terms, especially with an eye to the first paragraph. Do you believe that zygote = blastocyst = embryo = fetus = infant? Do you believe it's acceptable for a person to kill a baby alive for one month outside of its mother's body? What about a six-month old infant?
 
I agree with your second paragraph FWIW. But I don't believe that legal abortions are infanticide. I also think that this slew of anti-abortion laws stem from a desire to control and limit women's freedom. These laws are going to create a major backlash among women voters.
 
 
 

R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: May 18, 2019 - 2:42pm

 westslope wrote:
I'm good with infanticide (...)
 
Different topic.

westslope

westslope Avatar

Location: BC sage brush steppe


Posted: May 18, 2019 - 2:27pm

I'm good with infanticide if a reasonable of the citizenry also approves of infanticide.  But if the fellow citizens oppose infanticide, I am fine with the restriction.

As for erecting barriers to medically safe abortions I strongly oppose for a whole slew of personal, moral, ethical, collective security and economic reasons.  Human capital is so critical in today's economy that the quality of child rearing and education is just as or more important than ever. Presumably wanted, planned children stand a better chance.  
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: May 18, 2019 - 12:36pm

The anti-gay extremist behind America's fiercely strict abortion bans
Janet Porter is a woman who believes life begins at conception and homosexuality is a choice. She has said gay marriage caused Noah’s floods, and was the architect of a 1990s gay conversion campaign. She implied US supreme court justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, a Jewish woman, is a racist. Like Donald Trump, she was a proponent of the Barack Obama “birther” conspiracy theory.

The Southern Poverty Law Center, a leading civil rights organization, designates her non-profit Faith 2 Action, as a hate group for its work against LGBTQ rights. She lost a slot on a Christian radio network when, the station said, an event she held veered into a form of Christian supremacy. (...)

Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: May 18, 2019 - 9:27am

A non-hysterical debate/discussion between two committed, passionate people that won't insult you or your intelligence.

I'm cheating, of course: they're both libertarians.  But this is absolutely worth a listen.

Pro-Life and Pro-Choice Libertarians Calmly Discuss Abortion

A conversation between Reason editors about Georgia's "heartbeat law," the future of Roe v. Wade, and how to be less shouty even when you disagree.


R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: May 17, 2019 - 12:10pm

The Abortion Bans Aren’t Just About Repealing Roe v Wade
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: May 16, 2019 - 5:34pm

 Red_Dragon wrote:
 
Shut up Pat, MAGA!

Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: May 16, 2019 - 6:49am

Even Pat Robertson says it's too much...
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Apr 5, 2018 - 12:43pm

Another fine specimen
BlueHeronDruid

BlueHeronDruid Avatar

Location: planting flowers


Posted: Apr 4, 2018 - 2:55pm

 R_P wrote: 
Because Catholicism is all about retribution and murder.

But not birth control.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Apr 4, 2018 - 2:42pm

Fewer women = fewer abortions
Punishing women with the death penalty would cut abortions, Idaho candidate says
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Sep 5, 2012 - 3:01pm

 RichardPrins wrote:
Rapist's Gruesome Beheading Shows Turkish Dilemma On Abortion
The honor code of Turkey's rural Yalvac district, normally dictated by men, was turned upside down by a woman who decapitated her alleged rapist and tossed his head into the  square of the district's main village.

"That is the head of the one who toyed with my honor," Nevin Y. yelled as police arrested her.

The 26-year-old mother of two, whose full name has not been made public, claims she was blackmailed and raped for months by a man who made her pregnant, before she decided to seek revenge. She feared that if her rapist spread details of the attacks, her honor and the honor of her children would be compromised. Every day in Turkey women are killed or tortured for defying these codes.

For Nevin, the burden of honor hasn't ended. As she enters the fifth month of her pregnancy, she falls under the legal restriction that prohibits abortions after 10 weeks. Turkey's abortion debate has been re-sparked as Nevin pleas with authorities, saying she would rather die than give birth to the child of her attacker.

"The extremity of Nevin's actions show the extent of the trauma the rape has caused," says Dr. Gürsel Öztunalı Kayır of the Foundation for Women's Solidarity. " We shouldn't be distracted by the murder; if she wants to have an abortion following months of abuse, she should have the right."


 
If she's pregnant, it must not have been a legitimate rape.
R_P

R_P Avatar



Posted: Sep 5, 2012 - 2:47pm

Rapist's Gruesome Beheading Shows Turkish Dilemma On Abortion
The honor code of Turkey's rural Yalvac district, normally dictated by men, was turned upside down by a woman who decapitated her alleged rapist and tossed his head into the  square of the district's main village.

"That is the head of the one who toyed with my honor," Nevin Y. yelled as police arrested her.

The 26-year-old mother of two, whose full name has not been made public, claims she was blackmailed and raped for months by a man who made her pregnant, before she decided to seek revenge. She feared that if her rapist spread details of the attacks, her honor and the honor of her children would be compromised. Every day in Turkey women are killed or tortured for defying these codes.

For Nevin, the burden of honor hasn't ended. As she enters the fifth month of her pregnancy, she falls under the legal restriction that prohibits abortions after 10 weeks. Turkey's abortion debate has been re-sparked as Nevin pleas with authorities, saying she would rather die than give birth to the child of her attacker.

"The extremity of Nevin's actions show the extent of the trauma the rape has caused," says Dr. Gürsel Öztunalı Kayır of the Foundation for Women's Solidarity. " We shouldn't be distracted by the murder; if she wants to have an abortion following months of abuse, she should have the right."

Umberdog

Umberdog Avatar

Location: In my body.
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 30, 2012 - 11:17am

Free country? Ha! Time to forget the fairy tales. The suits have us bound and chained.
sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 30, 2012 - 10:56am

 kysmet wrote:
My friend is going to school for photography and her class got some press passes to go to the RNC yesterday. She snapped this one with her phone. WTF? I guess they don't care about the traumatic effect this could have on a small child who might see this driving down the street.



Click on the image if you really want to see it larger to get the full effect.

 

Hey, they are there to protect the unborn, after they are born?.........meh they have churches and charities for the riff raff harumph, yes, indeed, quite.{#Rolleyes}
K_Love

K_Love Avatar

Gender: Female


Posted: Aug 30, 2012 - 10:51am

My friend is going to school for photography and her class got some press passes to go to the RNC yesterday. She snapped this one with her phone. WTF? I guess they don't care about the traumatic effect this could have on a small child who might see this driving down the street.



Click on the image if you really want to see it larger to get the full effect.
Servo

Servo Avatar

Location: Down on the Farm
Gender: Male


Posted: Aug 29, 2012 - 8:59pm

 Skaterella wrote:
don't believe in abortion-don't have one.
 
{#Yes}  "The Minority Report" and thoughtcrime is fiction; let's keep it that way.  If you're a Catholic, don't force me to live as a Catholic.

Respect the Constitution.  If you can muster enough votes to make an amendment, then give it a try.  But until and unless there is a "no choice" amendment and/or separation of church and state is amended away, the Constitution as-is is still the highest law—obey it.


Skaterella

Skaterella Avatar

Location: jrzy
Gender: Female


Posted: Aug 29, 2012 - 4:20pm

don't believe in abortion-don't have one. 
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