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Trump Lies - R_P - Nov 12, 2019 - 4:49pm
 
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Little known information...maybe even facts - haresfur - Nov 11, 2019 - 3:12pm
 
Canada - SeriousLee - Nov 11, 2019 - 2:52pm
 
Republican Party - Isabeau - Nov 11, 2019 - 1:18pm
 
TWO WORDS - Isabeau - Nov 11, 2019 - 10:37am
 
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2020 Elections - Red_Dragon - Nov 10, 2019 - 1:40pm
 
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Jriver album covers not displayed - olivierbo73 - Nov 10, 2019 - 3:46am
 
DQ (as in 'Daily Quote') - SeriousLee - Nov 10, 2019 - 12:34am
 
RIP R.E.M. - R_P - Nov 9, 2019 - 10:25pm
 
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Military Matters - westslope - Nov 9, 2019 - 6:20pm
 
Reviews and Pix from your concerts and shows you couldn't... - SeriousLee - Nov 9, 2019 - 2:37pm
 
Strange signs, marquees, billboards, etc. - SeriousLee - Nov 9, 2019 - 5:18am
 
Music Videos - SeriousLee - Nov 9, 2019 - 5:15am
 
What Did You See Today? - SeriousLee - Nov 9, 2019 - 4:46am
 
Out the window - SeriousLee - Nov 9, 2019 - 4:43am
 
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Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 11, 2019 - 1:18pm



 black321 wrote:


 Isabeau wrote:


 black321 wrote:


 
 
OK, but i like his policies. Ha!

 

 

I personally dont like them...but thats the usual response to excuse his behavior. 
 
I'm truly grateful, after all these years, for being able to legitimately post the 'moon' emoticon to a post.  I can die now.

black321

black321 Avatar

Location: A sunset in the desert
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 11, 2019 - 10:50am



 Isabeau wrote:


 black321 wrote:


 
 
OK, but i like his policies. Ha!

 

 

I personally dont like them...but thats the usual response to excuse his behavior. 
Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 11, 2019 - 10:35am



 black321 wrote:


 
 
OK, but i like his policies. Ha!

 



black321

black321 Avatar

Location: A sunset in the desert
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 11, 2019 - 8:35am



 Isabeau wrote:


 KarmaKarma wrote:
 
So you support a porn star payoff lie, going limp in front of Putin at Helsinki, the adolescent name-calling, the misogyny, the vitriol thrown about at the rallies, Trump's ignorance regarding Frederick Douglass and the boundaries of Colorado, the magic marker hurricane path, the making fun of a disabled reporter, the comment of "shithole" countries, family nepotism in his administration, a skeleton 'acting' cabinet where people are leaving in droves, screwing over farmers, not bringing back manufacturing or coal jobs (auto plants are still closing), the Trump businesses and hotels making money via the presidency and state visits, and the desertion of our allies in Syria? 


No defense of the indefensible, so here comes the squirrel pointing to Hillary or Obama, in 3, 2, 1 ...

 
OK, but i like his policies. Ha!

Isabeau

Isabeau Avatar

Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 11, 2019 - 6:59am



 KarmaKarma wrote:
 
So you support a porn star payoff lie, going limp in front of Putin at Helsinki, the adolescent name-calling, the misogyny, the vitriol thrown about at the rallies, Trump's ignorance regarding Frederick Douglass and the boundaries of Colorado, the magic marker hurricane path, the making fun of a disabled reporter, the comment of "shithole" countries, family nepotism in his administration, a skeleton 'acting' cabinet where people are leaving in droves, screwing over farmers, not bringing back manufacturing or coal jobs (auto plants are still closing), the Trump businesses and hotels making money via the presidency and state visits, and the desertion of our allies in Syria? 


No defense of the indefensible, so here comes the squirrel pointing to Hillary or Obama, in 3, 2, 1 ...

sirdroseph

sirdroseph Avatar

Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 11, 2019 - 4:02am



 Lazy8 wrote:
islander wrote:
Yes on all 3 counts. But your last statement is pure speculation.  The original question was whether the whistle blower rules/protections  applied equally to .gov employees and contractors. The answer is not completely clear,  but generally accepted as Yes. Snowden used a 'no' answer to justify his actions. I don't necessarily disagree with his reasoning, but I'm happy he took his course of action. It is still not correct to say he had no other option.

Allow me to clarify: he took the only course available that would expose the problem.

He could also have done what everyone else in his position had done: collect his paycheck and keep his mouth shut. Yes, that's an option, but not one his conscience could abide.

Leaving aside the employee/contractor question, the current whistle blower faced all the same challenges you listed above. Yet he took a different course of action.  He faced the same 3 challenges that you listed above.  I think you can say he is facing a lot of challenges, but the fact that we are all here discussing it pretty much means that he wasn't (effectively) silenced. As to whether or not the crimes will continue - we have yet to see.   Also, I'd say both Snowden and the current WB di the right thing, and I'd call them both patriots.

There's no comparison. Trump's whistleblower had a majority in the House looking for anything—anything at all—to throw at Trump. He knew he'd get a friendly reception and get offered what protection they could deliver. Snowden had no such allies.

Yes, they're both patriots and deserve our thanks, but the risks Snowden took and the consequences he faces are far worse.
 

That's how I sees it though the motivation and background of the whistle blower will be met with much suspicion if nothing comes from it.  Now if Trump really did commit an impeachable offense, then it is moot, the whistle blower did a great service to our country regardless of motivation.  We shall see.  Maybe we are all not considering a completely different angle here in the big picture.  Is Trump's master plan to pull the curtain off of everything and pull everyone down with him?  The way things are going looks like in Washington, "they are all going to die a little in that war."   Both parties look bad and will be badly damaged when the dust is cleared on this one and I for one think this is ultimately a good thing for our country.   Will Trump's legacy be that he was the domino that set forth the eventual demise of the two party duopoly as we know it?

KarmaKarma

KarmaKarma Avatar



Posted: Nov 10, 2019 - 4:18pm

 Lazy8 wrote:
islander wrote:
Yes on all 3 counts. But your last statement is pure speculation.  The original question was whether the whistle blower rules/protections  applied equally to .gov employees and contractors. The answer is not completely clear,  but generally accepted as Yes. Snowden used a 'no' answer to justify his actions. I don't necessarily disagree with his reasoning, but I'm happy he took his course of action. It is still not correct to say he had no other option.

Allow me to clarify: he took the only course available that would expose the problem.

He could also have done what everyone else in his position had done: collect his paycheck and keep his mouth shut. Yes, that's an option, but not one his conscience could abide.

Leaving aside the employee/contractor question, the current whistle blower faced all the same challenges you listed above. Yet he took a different course of action.  He faced the same 3 challenges that you listed above.  I think you can say he is facing a lot of challenges, but the fact that we are all here discussing it pretty much means that he wasn't (effectively) silenced. As to whether or not the crimes will continue - we have yet to see.   Also, I'd say both Snowden and the current WB di the right thing, and I'd call them both patriots.

There's no comparison. Trump's whistleblower had a majority in the House looking for anything—anything at all—to throw at Trump. He knew he'd get a friendly reception and get offered what protection they could deliver. Snowden had no such allies.

Yes, they're both patriots and deserve our thanks, but the risks Snowden took and the consequences he faces are far worse.
 
Trump's "whistleblower" will be yet another failed attempt by the Dems to skewer Trump.  This so-called whistle-blower is a gross fraud in itself, being lapped up by culpable and colluding senior officials of an opposition party that is all-in on trying anything, anything at all, to take out Trump.  That this person is a fraud, is obvious to those who have been provided all the facts.  That would be those who do NOT watch MSDNC, CNN, & other blatantly biased sources.  They will fail. Again.  And in doing so, will set the bar for malicious prosecutions once again so low that future political and law courses will study the damage their actions have done to society - and the political process.  Not to mention the precedent they have set that will no doubt be used against them.  Dems have not yet met a rake they don't like ... stepping on.  The idiot party.  Truly. Don't Dem voters ever get tired of getting sold yet another pack of lies and false hopes by the fraudulent media malpracticers?   Asking for a friend.

As for Snowden, he deserves nothing less than a short rope and a long drop.  Only in this country are we willing to allow such wanton destruction of national secrets and call it "whistleblowing".  Had Snowden done this while working on behalf of a less democratic nation, say, oh, China, he would have been seized and disappeared long ago.  The only thing keeping him above ground now is his high profile and name recognition. He's already worn out his welcome elsewhere on this planet, and has apparently voiced the idea that he'd like to come home and face the consequences.  

2013: The damage done by Snowden's Treason
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/paul-pillar/snowdens-treason-9020

A comment from a Sept 13-2019 article: "Snowden said it helped that Russia viewed him as useful publicity." 
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/ng-interactive/2019/sep/13/edward-snowden-interview-whistleblowing-russia-ai-permanent-record
Snowden misunderstood.  Russia, and others (like China) view him as a useful idiot.  Big difference.

Killing this treasonous shitstain now would be of questionable value. It might light aflame again the news cycle of damaging stories and give the rabble something more to rabble-on about.  It would also give kooks like Bernie Three Sheds more ammo to spew in his delusional quest to be relevant.  

About the only good that could come of killing Snowden now would be to serve as a warning to others what fate awaits them.  Of course... this country was not the only one harmed by Snowden's treasonous revelations.  Another country, with sufficient interest, or willingness, to do the work that needs to be done on the very unofficial behest of .... well, there you go.  Plausible deniability.

But wtf do I, a stupid deplorable from flyover country know. 

It's voters and commentators like blue checkmark Kyle here, who are setting the tone for the American future.  God help us.





Wikipedia: "Kyle Edward Kulinski is an American political commentator, and the co-founder of Justice Democrats. He is the host and producer of The Kyle Kulinski Show on his channel Secular Talk, an affiliate of The Young Turks network. He is a social democrat, and a registered Democrat in New York state. "




Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 10, 2019 - 10:17am

islander wrote:
Yes on all 3 counts. But your last statement is pure speculation.  The original question was whether the whistle blower rules/protections  applied equally to .gov employees and contractors. The answer is not completely clear,  but generally accepted as Yes. Snowden used a 'no' answer to justify his actions. I don't necessarily disagree with his reasoning, but I'm happy he took his course of action. It is still not correct to say he had no other option.

Allow me to clarify: he took the only course available that would expose the problem.

He could also have done what everyone else in his position had done: collect his paycheck and keep his mouth shut. Yes, that's an option, but not one his conscience could abide.

Leaving aside the employee/contractor question, the current whistle blower faced all the same challenges you listed above. Yet he took a different course of action.  He faced the same 3 challenges that you listed above.  I think you can say he is facing a lot of challenges, but the fact that we are all here discussing it pretty much means that he wasn't (effectively) silenced. As to whether or not the crimes will continue - we have yet to see.   Also, I'd say both Snowden and the current WB di the right thing, and I'd call them both patriots.

There's no comparison. Trump's whistleblower had a majority in the House looking for anything—anything at all—to throw at Trump. He knew he'd get a friendly reception and get offered what protection they could deliver. Snowden had no such allies.

Yes, they're both patriots and deserve our thanks, but the risks Snowden took and the consequences he faces are far worse.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 10, 2019 - 7:50am



 Lazy8 wrote:
islander wrote:
So yes there is a little ambiguity. But it's also clear that he had options. I can understand his reluctance to use them, and I can see the reasoning he came up with for his actions. But it strains credibility to say that protections simply don't cover contractors, or that he had no other options.

The law should protect me, and maybe it does, but I know that the administration in power and its current rivals for power will use every tool at their disposal to crush me like a bug. If I go thru legal channels here's what I can expect:

1. I'm reporting a crime to the people who committed it or the people who funded and authorized it. My complaint will never reach the ears of anyone inclined to stop it.

2. Those people will retaliate...harshly. At very least, assuming they stick to the letter of the law, the NSA will find a pretext to cancel the contract with the company I work for and I'll be out of a job, but still forbidden to disclose what was happening...and would continue to happen.

3. Let's say I decide to fight that retaliation under the whistleblower statute. The evidence I need for my defense is classified and I won't be given access to it. If I have the resources to appeal my case all the way to the Supreme Court I might eventually prevail, but the people responsible will suffer no consequences at all.

Options? Yeah, he had options, but all but the one he chose would silence him and the crimes he exposed would continue. He did the right thing.

Yes on all 3 counts. But your last statement is pure speculation.  The original question was whether the whistle blower rules/protections  applied equally to .gov employees and contractors. The answer is not completely clear,  but generally accepted as Yes. Snowden used a 'no' answer to justify his actions. I don't necessarily disagree with his reasoning, but I'm happy he took his course of action. It is still not correct to say he had no other option. 

Leaving aside the employee/contractor question, the current whistle blower faced all the same challenges you listed above. Yet he took a different course of action.  He faced the same 3 challenges that you listed above.  I think you can say he is facing a lot of challenges, but the fact that we are all here discussing it pretty much means that he wasn't (effectively) silenced. As to whether or not the crimes will continue - we have yet to see.   Also, I'd say both Snowden and the current WB di the right thing, and I'd call them both patriots.


Isabeau

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Location: sou' tex
Gender: Female


Posted: Nov 10, 2019 - 7:34am



 Red_Dragon wrote:
 

Todd kept pressing him to admit to the quid pro quo, Rand quickly said 'possibly' then immediately went into Joe and Hunter Biden as having done 'equally' wrong. They did not. There is no 'there' there. Requesting a corrupt prosecutor be removed is NOT the same as asking for investigation into a particular individual, one that happens to be a potential presidential candidate. He even brought up Hillary Clinton 'conspiracies.' False equivalency, squirrel pointing deflection and endangering a whistleblower is the Republican M.O. these days. I'm ready for some mustard to go with these pretzels.
ScottFromWyoming

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Location: Powell
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 10, 2019 - 7:27am



 Red_Dragon wrote:
 

He's right except where he ignores the clear evidence that it was all about getting dirt on Biden/Democrats and he used his personal attorney to work the deal, clearly not a gov't negotiation.
Red_Dragon

Red_Dragon Avatar



Posted: Nov 10, 2019 - 6:59am

Rand Paul: Trump has "every right" to use quid pro quo with Ukraine
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 8, 2019 - 2:07pm

islander wrote:
So yes there is a little ambiguity. But it's also clear that he had options. I can understand his reluctance to use them, and I can see the reasoning he came up with for his actions. But it strains credibility to say that protections simply don't cover contractors, or that he had no other options.

The law should protect me, and maybe it does, but I know that the administration in power and its current rivals for power will use every tool at their disposal to crush me like a bug. If I go thru legal channels here's what I can expect:

1. I'm reporting a crime to the people who committed it or the people who funded and authorized it. My complaint will never reach the ears of anyone inclined to stop it.

2. Those people will retaliate...harshly. At very least, assuming they stick to the letter of the law, the NSA will find a pretext to cancel the contract with the company I work for and I'll be out of a job, but still forbidden to disclose what was happening...and would continue to happen.

3. Let's say I decide to fight that retaliation under the whistleblower statute. The evidence I need for my defense is classified and I won't be given access to it. If I have the resources to appeal my case all the way to the Supreme Court I might eventually prevail, but the people responsible will suffer no consequences at all.

Options? Yeah, he had options, but all but the one he chose would silence him and the crimes he exposed would continue. He did the right thing.
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 8, 2019 - 12:59pm



 Lazy8 wrote:
islander wrote:
I don't think this is correct. 



https://oig.justice.gov/hotline/docs/NDAA-brochure.pdf



"A whistleblower is an employee of a Federal contractor, subcontractor, grantee, or subgrantee or personal
services contractor
who discloses information that the individual reasonably believes is evidence of: "


Which makes sense because a whole lot of people who get that kind of info are not government employees.

 I do think the rest of your statement is probably true though.  Which means that whistle blowers take substantial risks regardless of the path they choose.

Not that clear at all
. Separate statute governs people doing intelligence work, and the Obama administration was ruthless in prosecuting anyone who leaked anything.

FTA:

The Pinocchio Test

We told you it was complicated. Based on Meyer’s interpretation — and he should know — Snowden is incorrect that contractors were specifically exempted under PPD19, since at least Section B would seem to apply. But Section A — which protects against retaliation — does not appear to cover contractors. Drake’s experience is certainly a cautionary tale for any would-be whistleblower in the intelligence realm.

In the end, we are going to award Snowden a single Pinocchio, but it’s more like ½. He cannot quite make the blanket claim that there are no protections for contractors, but he may have been correct in believing that there appear to be no clear protections, especially from retaliation.

 

So yes there is a little ambiguity. But it's also clear that he had options. I can understand his reluctance to use them, and I can see the reasoning he came up with for his actions. But it strains credibility to say that protections simply don't cover contractors, or that he had no other options.
Lazy8

Lazy8 Avatar

Location: The Gallatin Valley of Montana
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 7, 2019 - 3:23pm

islander wrote:
I don't think this is correct. 



https://oig.justice.gov/hotline/docs/NDAA-brochure.pdf



"A whistleblower is an employee of a Federal contractor, subcontractor, grantee, or subgrantee or personal
services contractor
who discloses information that the individual reasonably believes is evidence of: "


Which makes sense because a whole lot of people who get that kind of info are not government employees.

 I do think the rest of your statement is probably true though.  Which means that whistle blowers take substantial risks regardless of the path they choose.

Not that clear at all
. Separate statute governs people doing intelligence work, and the Obama administration was ruthless in prosecuting anyone who leaked anything.
miamizsun

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Location: (3261.3 Miles SE of RP)
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 7, 2019 - 2:24pm

 steeler wrote:
Or he is a charlatan. 
 

he probably just plays one on tv
steeler

steeler Avatar

Location: Perched on the precipice of the cauldron of truth


Posted: Nov 7, 2019 - 12:23pm



 kurtster wrote:
Except that there is no provision for anonymity in the whistle blower regulations.  Just about everything but.  And this whistleblower has no first hand information.  And this whistleblower is said to have long standing ties with Biden and Brennan.  And the whistleblower's attorney has a long standing history of trying to impeach Trump and even mentioned starting the "coup" against Trump in a tweet dated January 2017.  And the whistleblower had contact with Schiff's office prior to finding this attorney.

imo, the whistleblower is a spy and this whole scenario was orchestrated in advance.  What blew it all up was Trump releasing the transcript, something that no one anticipated or planned for.

I no longer believe Paul is an ideologue.  He's a pragmatist with his own list of priorities that cannot be put in a nice little box and labeled.
 
You state  that the whistleblower has no firsthand information. Right now, the whistleblower’s complaint triggered the impeachment inquiry, but the House is gathering evidence from those with firsthand knowledge of events. If that remains the case, the House would not be relying on the whistleblower for evidence it is considering. The whistleblower complaint essentially directed the House to those who had evidence. Again, if that remains the case, why do the motivations of the whistleblower matter? As I said earlier, the whistleblower is akin to an anonymous tipster who reports a crime to the police. If the police investigate that tip and collect admissible evidence.that results in arrest and conviction, the identity and motivations of the tipster are irrelevant.

Put another way: if we assume as a hypothetical that the evidence collected by the House convinces the House to impeach and the Senate, after trial, to remove, would you or anyone else be able to say credibly that should not have happened because no one considered the background and motivation of the whistleblower?  That the investigation should not have been triggered and, if it had not been triggered, good chance no one would have uncovered this evidence? That would make no sense. 

Also: what I have read is the whistleblower is a CIA agent who was detailed to National Security in Obama tenure and continuing into a Trump tenure to advise on Ukraine.  And that the whistleblower participated in briefings of Biden when he was VP. So, of course, the whistleblower would have “connections” to Biden and Brennan. It is misleading to say, as some have, that he worked for Biden without clarifying the nature of that work relationship. 

And it has been reported that the whistleblower is or was a registered Democrat. If being a registered Democrat is enough to render the whistleblower incredible, it would also have to follow that anyone who is a registered Republican also is incredible. That would disqualify lots of people in the government. I know Trump incessantly labeled  members of Mueller’s team as biased based on their being Democrats, but no reasonable and credible person  would make that claim — or believe it.

Edit: You also used your own label for  Rand Paul while stating that he cannot be labeled.



kurtster

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Location: drifting
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 7, 2019 - 11:46am

Except that there is no provision for anonymity in the whistle blower regulations.  Just about everything but.  And this whistleblower has no first hand information.  And this whistleblower is said to have long standing ties with Biden and Brennan.  And the whistleblower's attorney has a long standing history of trying to impeach Trump and even mentioned starting the "coup" against Trump in a tweet dated January 2017.  And the whistleblower had contact with Schiff's office prior to finding this attorney.

imo, the whistleblower is a spy and this whole scenario was orchestrated in advance expressly tor the purpose of initiating this latest round of impeachment proceedings.  What blew it all up was Trump releasing the transcript, something that no one anticipated or planned for.

I no longer believe Paul is an ideologue.  He's a pragmatist with his own list of priorities that cannot be put in a nice little box and labeled.
sirdroseph

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Location: Yes
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 7, 2019 - 10:45am

 islander wrote:


 sirdroseph wrote:

This only solidifies our point even more. You would have to be out of your mind to attempt to whistleblow through proper legal channels on any government agency unless you had the political backing that would benefit or hurt one party or the other as in this case. Sad but true.
 

And this further makes my point. People do this at great risk. Regardless of using 'proper' channels or not, it is unlikely that they are doing this for fame or simple political motives.  These people think there is a grievous problem and they are willing to take risks to daylight them. Their complaints deserve to be heard, and they deserve anonymity.  

edit: and Rand Paul is a fucktard.
 
You are suggesting I put blame or derision on the whistleblower, quite the contrary.  I am assigning blame to a corrupt, partisan government that creates an environment to where whistleblowers are not protected unless they meet the agenda of those in power.  However this particular whistleblower I am sure is aware of the severe partisan situation and had to know that they would have powerful backing in Congress to protect them which is not the case in a lot of whistleblowers in the past who felt the full wrath of the government for their good deeds.   As far as you telling me that whistle blowers complaints deserve to be heard and with anonymity, yea no kidding.   Don't really know what prompted you to think that I would need to hear that because I have never suggested otherwise. {#Ask}
islander

islander Avatar

Location: Seattle
Gender: Male


Posted: Nov 7, 2019 - 10:28am



 sirdroseph wrote:



This only solidifies our point even more. You would have to be out of your mind to attempt to whistleblow through proper legal channels on any government agency unless you had the political backing that would benefit or hurt one party or the other as in this case. Sad but true.


 

And this further makes my point. People do this at great risk. Regardless of using 'proper' channels or not, it is unlikely that they are doing this for fame or simple political motives.  These people think there is a grievous problem and they are willing to take risks to daylight them. Their complaints deserve to be heard, and they deserve anonymity.  

edit: and Rand Paul is a fucktard.
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