Funny, you never mention the Ukrainians' interests. Or the Georgians, or the Chechens,
Or the Poles' or the Latvians' or the Finns' or the Estonians' or the Moldovans' or the Czechs' or the Slovaks' or the Slovenians' or any number of nations that only recently escaped from under the boot of the Russian empire and don't want to go back under. Your worldview has no place for them, other than as pawns in games between major powers.
Obama, like Trump, was negotiating over the future of Ukraine without involving the Ukrainians. He appeasedârather than confrontedâan expansive authoritarian state intent on growing by conquest. That looks like a mistake from 2025, but what do weâthe worldâdo now?
It's clear from both rhetoric and actions that Putin intends to reconstitute the Russian empire, to seek dominance over eastern Europe and the Baltics. Europe (other than Orban's Hungary) recognizes that threat. The answer you keep cutting and pasting to this threat is to either look the other way, pretending it isn't real, or to sympathize with the source of that threat.
You may get what you want. The irony here is that this politics of raw power you favor is now a threat to your own country. What will you do if this modern Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact emerging between Putin and Trump actually holds this time, and the mighty powers stick to their agreed spheres of influence, carving up the world between them?
You may prefer one form of authoritarian to another, but you won't get a choice of which boot you have to lick.
+1
Once a former Soviet satellite... always a Soviet satellite (apparently).
The irony here is that this politics of raw power you favor is now a threat to your own country.
Clearly can't help yourself. Ironically, there's more than a little projection involved there (But muh American Power!). See the infantile cartoon, Mr. Birch.
Funny, you never mention the Ukrainians' interests. Or the Georgians, or the Chechens,
Or the Poles' or the Latvians' or the Finns' or the Estonians' or the Moldovans' or the Czechs' or the Slovaks' or the Slovenians' or any number of nations that only recently escaped from under the boot of the Russian empire and don't want to go back under. Your worldview has no place for them, other than as pawns in games between major powers.
Obama, like Trump, was negotiating over the future of Ukraine without involving the Ukrainians. He appeasedârather than confrontedâan expansive authoritarian state intent on growing by conquest. That looks like a mistake from 2025, but what do weâthe worldâdo now?
It's clear from both rhetoric and actions that Putin intends to reconstitute the Russian empire, to seek dominance over eastern Europe and the Baltics. Europe (other than Orban's Hungary) recognizes that threat. The answer you keep cutting and pasting to this threat is to either look the other way, pretending it isn't real, or to sympathize with the source of that threat.
You may get what you want. The irony here is that this politics of raw power you favor is now a threat to your own country. What will you do if this modern Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact emerging between Putin and Trump actually holds this time, and the mighty powers stick to their agreed spheres of influence, carving up the world between them?
You may prefer one form of authoritarian to another, but you won't get a choice of which boot you have to lick.
spot on.
That has always been the most glaring logical inconsistency in all of R_P's posts. After screeds of anti-American posts (some of which are quite justified, I might add) he has always been completely blind to other empires doing exactly the same thing as what he found so despicable about US policy. Be it Chinese handling of Tibetans or Uighurs, Russian handling of its satellite states, etc. Not a word.
With that he has eroded all values-based justification for his own world view and reduced it all to purely power-based politics. And in doing so, he ironically lets the US off the hook, because if it is all just about power, then they are entirely justified in doing what they do, however they want.
I actually don't think this is R's actual view of things, but by failing to criticise powers other than the US, he has basically painted himself into a corner. Either we should have a values-based system and we can hammer out those values, or we don't. The default option is naked power.
@R_P, tell us where we are wrong without making some vacuous "we don't share ideologies" or "if you don't get it by now" comment. You could maybe start by explaining why the Tibetans don't get the same treatment from you as the Palestinians, for instance.
You just don't (want to) get it. I don't justify this war. The people that predicted the war, and in some cases the likely outcome, didn't justify it either. They warned you what might happen. FAFO.
Agent Obama (2016) on core interests, using the language of 'realist' IR academics:
Funny, you never mention the Ukrainians' interests. Or the Georgians, or the Chechens,
Or the Poles' or the Latvians' or the Finns' or the Estonians' or the Moldovans' or the Czechs' or the Slovaks' or the Slovenians' or any number of nations that only recently escaped from under the boot of the Russian empire and don't want to go back under. Your worldview has no place for them, other than as pawns in games between major powers.
Obama, like Trump, was negotiating over the future of Ukraine without involving the Ukrainians. He appeasedârather than confrontedâan expansive authoritarian state intent on growing by conquest. That looks like a mistake from 2025, but what do weâthe worldâdo now?
It's clear from both rhetoric and actions that Putin intends to reconstitute the Russian empire, to seek dominance over eastern Europe and the Baltics. Europe (other than Orban's Hungary) recognizes that threat. The answer you keep cutting and pasting to this threat is to either look the other way, pretending it isn't real, or to sympathize with the source of that threat.
You may get what you want. The irony here is that this politics of raw power you favor is now a threat to your own country. What will you do if this modern Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact emerging between Putin and Trump actually holds this time, and the mighty powers stick to their agreed spheres of influence, carving up the world between them?
You may prefer one form of authoritarian to another, but you won't get a choice of which boot you have to lick.
Try again. Justify this warâthe hundreds of thousands dead, the millions displaced and homeless, all of itâwithout engaging in this infantile retort.
You just don't (want to) get it. I don't justify this war. The people that predicted the war, and in some cases the likely outcome, didn't justify it either. They warned you what might happen. FAFO.
Agent Obama (2016) on core interests, using the language of 'realist' IR academics:
Down memory lane (and likely all buried deep in this thread)
Remember back in 1999 when Poland joined NATO?
Remember back in 2004 when Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia joined NATO?
All of them border the Russian Federation. Somehow that wasn't a crisis. That didn't call for the deaths of hundreds of thousands, the displacement of millions, and the sacrifice of a generation of young men.
Remember in 2010 when Ukraine's parliament voted to abandon plans to seek NATO membership and remain neutral? Remember back in 2014, when the Ukrainian parliament voted unanimously to remove the premier Russia had bought (whose very opulent home is now on display as a museum of corruption), but remained neutral? Remember when Russia then invaded four months later anyway, annexing Crimea?
No? Well, I get it—history is hard.
No country has the right to determine the fate of its neighbors, who they ally with, or what their policies will be. If a large number of your neighbors leave an alliance with you and join in an alliance to protect themselves from you that might be cause for sober reflection: why are they afraid of you? What can you do to allay that fear? How can you gain their trust?
Or you could continue to bully, threaten, and attempt to keep them in thrall by intimidation. I guess you go with what you know.
Looks like Zelensky is now kowtowing...wants back at the negotiating table.
Not that he wasn't disrespected, but he could have handled himself better in the face of that chubby bastard.
He's come too far to allow Trump's ego to prevent his negotiating a way out for Ukraine.
Looks like Zelensky is now kowtowing...wants back at the negotiating table.
Not that he wasn't disrespected, but he could have handled himself better in the face of that chubby bastard.
Outside of all the rhetoric and assumed l-t objectives which have made this bad situation even worse, and stating the obviousâ¦the US involvement is voluntary. The US involvement may be as a result of it acting as âpolicemanâ of the world in protecting Ukraine from an indefensible and militarily unprovoked Russian assault. If it chooses that path, asking for restitution in some form from rare earth deposits is not out of the question (in which case, the US acts more like a mercenary). Another reason for involvement is to punish Russia with a prolonged war effort, that Ukraine most likely canât win alone. However, without our âfullâ support, Ukraine may still not win, at least not anytime soonâ¦meaning years of death and destruction. Iâm not sure I would want to sign up for that or put my soldiers in that situation.
As such, at least some attempt at dialogue seems appropriate.
I agree but let's let a competent leader or leaders from other countries take the lead on it as Trump/Musk/Vance are clearly not up to the task and will certainly not achieve any concessions from Russia that would benefit Ukraine.
When Trump said Zelensky was welcome back when he was ready for peace he might as well have said "when you are ready to listen to and agree to the all the terms that Putin gave me to pass onto you". Puppets will be puppets after all...
If only the Ukrainians would have built some statue to Trump (thanking him & the US for their support) and thrown it up in some city square and took pictures of it to show to Trump or offer to take Trump to visit it... his ass would have been slathered enough to probably double the aid packages to Ukraine. A $50,000 statue could have bought them billions more in continued aid.
Outside of all the rhetoric and assumed l-t objectives which have made this bad situation even worse, and stating the obviousâ¦the US involvement is voluntary. The US involvement may be as a result of it acting as âpolicemanâ of the world in protecting Ukraine from an indefensible and militarily unprovoked Russian assault. If it chooses that path, asking for restitution in some form from rare earth deposits is not out of the question (in which case, the US acts more like a mercenary). Another reason for involvement is to punish Russia with a prolonged war effort, that Ukraine most likely canât win alone. However, without our âfullâ support, Ukraine may still not win, at least not anytime soonâ¦meaning years of death and destruction. Iâm not sure I would want to sign up for that or put my soldiers in that situation.
As such, at least some attempt at dialogue seems appropriate.
